The Christian's Relationship to The World & Spiritual Separation

[adechan]

1 John 2:15-16
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world – the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does – comes not from the Father but from the world.

The term “word” (Gk kosmos) often refers to the vast system of this age that Satan promotes and that exists independent of God. It consists not only in the obviously evil, immoral and sinful pleasures of the world, but also refers to the spirit of rebellion against or indifference to God and his revelation that exists within all human enterprises not under Christ’s lordship.

In this age Satan uses the world’s ideas, morality, philosophies, psychology, desires, governments, culture, education, science, art, medicine, music, economic systems, entertainment, mass media, religions, sports, agriculture, etc., to oppose God, his people, his Word and his righteous standards. (Mt 16:26; 1Co 2:12; 3:19; Titus 2:12; 1Jn 2:15-16.

For example, Satan will use the medical profession to promote the killing of unborn babies, agriculture to produce life-destroying drugs such as alcohol and narcotics, educational systems to promote ungodly and humanistic philosophy, and the entertainment media to destroy godly standards.

Believers must be aware that behind all human enterprises there is a spirit or power that moves against God and his Word, some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree.

Finally, the “world” also includes all man-made religious systems and all unbiblical, worldly or lukewarm “Christian” organizations and churches.

source: Full Life Study Bible

to be continued

[adechan]

Believers must be aware that behind all human enterprises there is a spirit or power that moves against God and his Word, some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree.

Satan is the god of the present world system. (Mt 4:10, Jn 12:21; 14:30; 16:11; 2Co 4:4; 1Jn 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%204:10,%2 0Jn%2012:21;%2014:30 ;%2016:11;%202Co%204 :4;%201Jn%205:19;&version=9;)). Along with a host of subordinate evil spirits, he controls it (Da 10:13; Lk 4:5-7; Eph 6:12-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Da%2010:13;% 20Lk%204:5-7;%20Eph%206:12-13;%202Co%204:4;%201 Jn%205:19;&version=9;)).
Satan has organized the world into political, cultural, economic and religious systems that are innately hostile toward God and his people ( Jn 7:7; 15:18; Jas 4:4; 1Jn 2:16,18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%207:7;%20 15:18;%20Jas%204:4;% 201Jn%202:16,18&version=9)) and that refuse to submit to his truth, which exposes its evil (Jn 7:7)
The world and the true church are two distinct groups of people. The world is under Satan's dominion; the church belongs exclusively to God. Thus believers must separate themselves from the world.つつく

[adechan]

It is really easy for us Christian to understand what we are in this world, so that we might understand more what are the things the Bible teaches us, and what God wants us to be so we can make our faith right and more stronger

4. In the world believers are aliens and strangers Hebrews 11:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2011 :13;&version=9;); 1Peter 2:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter%202:1 1;&version=9;))
a. they must come out of the world == John 15:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:19 ;&version=9;),
not be conformed to the world == Romans 12:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012: 2;&version=9;)
not love the world == 1John 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John%202:15 ;&version=9;)
overcome the world == 1John 5:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John%205:4;&version=9;)
hate the world's evil == Hebrews 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%201: 9;&version=9;)
die to the world == Galatians 6:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%20 6:14;&version=9;)
and be delivered from the world == Collosians 1:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Collosians%2 01:13-14;&version=9;)

b. Loving the world defiles our fellowship with God and leads to spiritual destruction. It is impossible to love the world and the Father at the same time.

To love the world means to be in intimate fellowship with and devoted to its values, interest, ways and pleasures; it means taking pleasure in or enjoying what is offensive and opposed to God.

Note, of course, that the terms "world" and "earth" are not synonymous; God does not forbid a love for the created earth, e.i., nature, mountains, forests, etc.

つつく

[zionchild]

Jesus said this because He knows that if we allow ourselves to be attached to the cares of this world, we will lose sight of the true joy that awaits us in heaven. Life on earth is already a blissful experience if we live it for God through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

[Ironside]

Amen. Many have lived in heaven long before they ever got there.

[la_tina512]

Jesus said this because He knows that if we allow ourselves to be attached to the cares of this world, we will lose sight of the true joy that awaits us in heaven. Life on earth is already a blissful experience if we live it for God through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

I can only say Amen to that.... :)

[NemoySpruce]

Hello po :) this is a nice thread. but i see a lot of things that do not make sense. is it okay if i try and point them out? for instance on the first post:

The term “word” (Gk kosmos) often refers to the vast system of this age that Satan promotes and that exists independent of God.how can any system exist that is independent of God? isnt God supposed to be omnipotent and omnicient?

I see several other points that are not logical, would you like me to point them out? :)

[sarpon]

Hello po :) this is a nice thread. but i see a lot of things that do not make sense. is it okay if i try and point them out? for instance on the first post:

how can any system exist that is independent of God? isnt God supposed to be omnipotent and omnicient?

I see several other points that are not logical, would you like me to point them out? :)

Nemoy-san, give them a break will you?...:D

[NemoySpruce]

Nemoy-san, give them a break will you?...:D

Im sorry po. could not resist :) and anyway this is very dangerous information being posted here. It seems benign, but if you think about it, this single post (the first post of this thread) has a lot of power. Power to change a person's life forever. Wouldnt it be prudent to try and see if it truly makes sense? Besides, Im sure those who believe in it would not mind a few harmless requests for clarification.

[gabby]

Im sorry po. could not resist :) and anyway this is very dangerous information being posted here. It seems benign, but if you think about it, this single post (the first post of this thread) has a lot of power. Power to change a person's life forever. Wouldnt it be prudent to try and see if it truly makes sense? Besides, Im sure those who believe in it would not mind a few harmless requests for clarification.

Hey spruce! Heh he he:D just leave Adechan alone she's harmless. :D :D

[aja]

Hello po :) this is a nice thread. but i see a lot of things that do not make sense. is it okay if i try and point them out? for instance on the first post:

how can any system exist that is independent of God? isnt God supposed to be omnipotent and omnicient?

I see several other points that are not logical, would you like me to point them out? :)

Isn't what you're doing right now independent of God?, just asking. Didn't God gave us freewill, free to do or think whatever we choose to?, another question, just like what you're doing questioning other peoples post.

[NemoySpruce]

a Very good question!! that leads to another...How can we have freewill if God is omnipotent and omniscient? but I think we should take that discussion to another thread......unless the thread starter says its alright to continue here?... :)


Isn't what you're doing right now independent of God?, just asking. Didn't God gave us freewill, free to do or think whatever we choose to?, another question, just like what you're doing questioning other peoples post.

[kakkoii_daw]

How can we have freewill if God is omnipotent and omniscient? but I think we should take that discussion to another thread......unless the thread starter says its alright to continue here?...
dude, meron na ata nito sa pragmatic thread. baka ma-OT tayo... :D

[adechan]

wiiiiii
ako'y napasilip lang, at type nang konti,
para malaman ninyo na nabasa ko ang mga messages dito,

maraming salamat sa inyong lahat, nakaka bless, nakakaintriga

I'll be back

peace

[aja]

a Very good question!! that leads to another...How can we have freewill if God is omnipotent and omniscient? but I think we should take that discussion to another thread......unless the thread starter says its alright to continue here?... :)

In a way this is related to the topic as mentioned in the first post,...independent of God... .You questioned if it exist and that's why I brought this up. I believe that we are given freedom to do whatever we choose to do, believe whatever we want to believe and that God will never interfere with us even though He has a foreknowledge of our thoughts and actions. I just want to see your opinion on this. Thanks.

[NemoySpruce]

hello aja-san,
That discussion I think is being tackled in another thread. I think we should take it up there. But briefly my opinion on this is, if we have free will then God is not truly omnipotent. If God is absolutely omnipotent, then our free will is just an illusion.

Ive been reading the verses posted by adechan on this thread, thanks adechan for posting bible verses and comments on this forum. It gives me a chance to read the bible :) I hope you dont mind if I apply some critical thinking into the discussion. Of course if I step over any boundaries please tell me and I will stop.

I think the best point of discussion on this topic is this note in one of your posts:

Note, of course, that the terms "world" and "earth" are not synonymous; God does not forbid a love for the created earth, e.i., nature, mountains, forests, etc.
I would argue that world and earth mean the same. we humans and everything we do that we consider 'evil' are part of the concept you call 'earth' (deception, violence, greed, sexual obscenities, murder, gluttony...) these things exist in nature.

I dont understand why 'world' and 'earth' are not synonymous.

Are you open to the possibility that the interpretation to the verses you posted could be flawed?

[adechan]

I dont understand why 'world' and 'earth' are not synonymous.

Are you open to the possibility that the interpretation to the verses you posted could be flawed?

first, i am very thankful, na kahit paano nagkaroon ka nang interest na basahin eto, pati ang mga bible verses.

About earth and world. As what I understand, earth is a place and world is one of the earth's system.

Kung titignan nga naman talaga very similar, because they are very much related and through our human thinking, earth and world cannot be seperated, because they are almost the same, and we can analyzed it that, earth and world is the same, and the interpretation presented in this thread will really look flawed.

But when you will try to look on a spiritual way of understanding, it could be much easier to relate what this bible teaching is trying to present.

Hope that I may not misrepresent important bible understanding in this following share, >>>> as i understand, before the fall of adam and eve, man lives in paradise, a part of the earth, where human and God talk together and walk together. And during that time human is much on spiritual awareness. And they were not yet aware of the flesh. We need to understand that God is Spirit, and man on spiritual awareness.
>>>> and the understanding here is, when adam and eve disobeyed/sinned, the spirit died, and now, we human became the vice versa of the human creation while they were still in paradise
>>>> and human ousted from paradise, and now live on this world.
>>>> And in this present days, we can choose how to live, live through the world's ways, or God's way. It is very impossible for us to overcome the world because we are existing and trying to survive here, but if we want to be back to God, we must overcome this world. Not by our strength but by God's strength.

And that is why world and earth is different through Biblical understanding.

hope i really do make sense, and did not misinterpret biblical teachings

addition:
another thing we must overcome is our flesh .... and be spiritually aware, so that we can understand the bible teachings in God's understanding.

[adechan]

aja thank you for your inputs, i agree

and to the rest ~~ arigatou

[NemoySpruce]

:) Very interesting adechan. I understand where you are coming from. I was in the same place years ago. Believe me, this discussion will be healthy for you.

Let me clarify if I understand how you view things to be. You are saying that there are 3 different realms.

1) Spiritual realm - God's realm
2) Human world - Present day (after the 'Fall' until present) how humans percieve the world.
3) Earth - nature, animals, mountains, oceans, insects

What you are saying is that everything in the Human world (science, philosophy, agriculture..etc) goes against God and must be shed. But we cannot do it alone, we need God's strength.

Furthermore, you are saying that initially there was only the Spiritual realm of God, and the Natural realm of his creations. But since man ate from the tree of 'knowledge', the Human world was created. And this Human world is not of God's making. It is a result of Man's disobedience, and so we should try to get out of it through the help of God's grace.

so to summarize: Human knowledge = bad. self-restraint = good.

so far so good? :)



first, i am very thankful, na kahit paano nagkaroon ka nang interest na basahin eto, pati ang mga bible verses.

About earth and world. As what I understand, earth is a place and world is one of the earth's system.

Kung titignan nga naman talaga very similar, because they are very much related and through our human thinking, earth and world cannot be seperated, because they are almost the same, and we can analyzed it that, earth and world is the same, and the interpretation presented in this thread will really look flawed.

But when you will try to look on a spiritual way of understanding, it could be much easier to relate what this bible teaching is trying to present.......

........And that is why world and earth is different through Biblical understanding.

hope i really do make sense, and did not misinterpret biblical teachings

addition:
another thing we must overcome is our flesh .... and be spiritually aware, so that we can understand the bible teachings in God's understanding.

disclaimer: Im not doing this to flaunt my beliefs or disparage anyone else's. My concerns are with accuracy of 'information' I just want things to be clear. Separate things we 'know' from things we dont.

[gabby]

I would argue that world and earth mean the same. we humans and everything we do that we consider 'evil' are part of the concept you call 'earth' (deception, violence, greed, sexual obscenities, murder, gluttony...) these things exist in nature.

I dont understand why 'world' and 'earth' are not synonymous.

Are you open to the possibility that the interpretation to the verses you posted could be flawed?


Hello Spruce!

Didn't it ever occur to you that every word and verse in the bible could have a lot of different meanings? Depending on which point of perspective are you on.

Like in this matter, could it be that from where you are, you view the world and earth are the same but from the other discipline they could mean a lot of things! Especially from the believers point of view like Adechan.

What I mean is from the agnostic's point of view everything is black and white. On the other hand, ascetics and mystics have viewed it on a much higher surrealistic interpretation.
Don't you agree?

Thus, personally, any interpretations from the bible couldn't be flawed because deffirent people have different lbackgrounds and disciplines. For example if you are a catholic or a devout catholic or a catholic faith defender, interprets any verses from the bible that fits his church's doctrine. Same goes with the protestant fundamentalist. The agnostics are out to discredit the bible and viewed science as more sensible and logical.

Thus you can't impose what you see on the other people. We don't meet and thus agree to disagree.:) I know I sound boring but what the heck!!

[aja]

I couldn't agree more to that, gabby!

[infinite_trial]

Thus you can't impose what you see on the other people. We don't meet and thus agree to disagree.:) I know I sound boring but what the heck!!
if this goes for agnostics, then i think it should also be applicable to christians(?)

[gabby]

if this goes for agnostics, then i think it should also be applicable to christians(?)

Oh no!! Are we going to start??

You can't blame the christians. Jesus Christ was very specific when he went up to heaven ( Whatever it means heh he he he . . ) Go out to the world and proclaim the good news not only to the Jews but to the gentiles as well. And here's the gentle caveat from JC himself, he said that whoever denies him, will be denied in heaven. And the prize catch like whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven Heh he he:D can you beat that? Once you become a christian you get locked up. No more escape. You are obligated to preach and convert as many as you can. Otherwise you will be guilty of the parable of talents.

Here's the best summary of it. Christian fanatics are inspired by the holy spirit to preach, proselytise and convert people like you. You are a big challenge to them you know?:p :D

[infinite_trial]

i'm not blaming :p sows naman

sabi ko lang your statement is also applicable to christians...actuall y to everyone regardless of religion

[gabby]

I know! Wala akong magawa e. :D

A little bit of detail can't really harm could it?:)

[infinite_trial]

I know! Wala akong magawa e. :D

A little bit of detail can't really harm could it?:)

sige na nga :p

[gabby]

sige na nga :p


LOL:D Shhhh!:sssh: Don't tell anyone my secret!!:p

[NemoySpruce]

Halo gabby :)

Yep. I respect other's opinions and Im not trying to impose anything on anyone. Its just a habit of mine to always try to verify information that I read. I always try to point out inconsistencies in logic when I see them. I ask for clarification when I see anything I dont understand. I learn a lot by doing this. :)

Anyway, information is information. Why should christian/religious text be exempt from logical scrutiny? I try to do it as polite as I can to avoid offending anyone. I dont see any harm in that :)

I have questions. And if the answers are in Christianity/Islam/Buddhism... then i will go there to find them.

Hello Spruce!

Didn't it ever occur to you that every word and verse in the bible could have a lot of different meanings? Depending on which point of perspective are you on.

What I mean is from the agnostic's point of view everything is black and white. On the other hand, ascetics and mystics have viewed it on a much higher surrealistic interpretation.
Don't you agree?

Thus you can't impose what you see on the other people. We don't meet and thus agree to disagree.:) I know I sound boring but what the heck!!

[alexb]

Yep. I respect other's opinions....

but you said I am biased, that I should free my mind, that I believe the preachers/teachers. I even asked you to prove that I am biased because of the preachers/teachers.

post #105 (http://www.timog.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169 49&page=11)

[NemoySpruce]

I respect your opinion. I just gave you my opinion of your opinion. I thought it was biased. If you disagree then its ok.

but you said I am biased, that I should free my mind, that I believe the preachers/teachers. I even asked you to prove that I am biased because of the preachers/teachers.

post #105 (http://www.timog.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169 49&page=11)

[gabby]

Halo gabby :)

Yep. I respect other's opinions and Im not trying to impose anything on anyone. Its just a habit of mine to always try to verify information that I read. I always try to point out inconsistencies in logic when I see them. I ask for clarification when I see anything I dont understand. I learn a lot by doing this. :)

Anyway, information is information. Why should christian/religious text be exempt from logical scrutiny? I try to do it as polite as I can to avoid offending anyone. I dont see any harm in that :)

I have questions. And if the answers are in Christianity/Islam/Buddhism... then i will go there to find them.

I know mate. That is why it is worth my time reading all your posts.:)

[adechan]

:)i'm just so happy to see a healthy flow of discussion here, hope we can keep it even in other threads, and this kind will show that we are maturing for good

[adechan]

Oh no!! Are we going to start??

You can't blame the christians. Jesus Christ was very specific when he went up to heaven ( Whatever it means heh he he he . . ) Go out to the world and proclaim the good news not only to the Jews but to the gentiles as well. And here's the gentle caveat from JC himself, he said that whoever denies him, will be denied in heaven. And the prize catch like whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven Heh he he:D can you beat that? Once you become a christian you get locked up. No more escape. You are obligated to preach and convert as many as you can. Otherwise you will be guilty of the parable of talents.

Here's the best summary of it. Christian fanatics are inspired by the holy spirit to preach, proselytise and convert people like you. You are a big challenge to them you know?:p :D

I agree Gabby. Yes, I must admit it is.

But let me quote from one of my daily devotionals

Winning souls is like farming;We plant little seeds of Truth of God in the empty
earth of empty hearts,& the great warm Sunshine of His Love & the water of
His Word cause those seeds to burst forth in the miracle of new life!


Of course,we hope to win others to faith in Christ,but that's really GODs job
& the work of the Holy Spirit.
We can only give them the Truth & show them the Lord's Love,but we can't
force results & we can't make the decision for them.

Whether or not they choose to believe & receive & follow that Truth is between
each individual & God! One person sows the seed, another may water it,but it
is God that gives the increase!

[NemoySpruce]

.....But let me quote from one of my daily devotionals

Winning souls is like farming;We plant little seeds of Truth of God in the empty
earth of empty hearts,& the great warm Sunshine of His Love & the water of
His Word cause those seeds to burst forth in the miracle of new life!


Of course,we hope to win others to faith in Christ,but that's really GODs job
& the work of the Holy Spirit.
We can only give them the Truth & show them the Lord's Love,but we can't
force results & we can't make the decision for them.

Whether or not they choose to believe & receive & follow that Truth is between
each individual & God! One person sows the seed, another may water it,but it
is God that gives the increase!

Winning souls. Such a noble gesture. But how do you define that act? Does it mean turning them from evil? Giving hope where there is despair? Showing that you care when no one else does? Is it simply altruism? or does it mean to make them believe in what you believe in? To 'convert' them into your religion? If so, then the nobility of the act is diminished dont you think?

Truth? what is Truth? is it Truth that is authorized by the catholic church? or truth made evident by common observation? Can souls be saved by using logic and science? Can good men be turned from evil by showing them evidence of the suffering their actions cause? Can souls be saved through science and logic? If its possible, then if you truly want to save souls, is it not more effective to use logic and reason than to quote verses from the bible? because most lost souls do not read the bible. People that read and understand the bible are already saved or at least on their way. If you really want to 'save souls', logic is the tool. But first you have to define, what it means when you say 'winning souls'.

[NemoySpruce]

hehe :) salamat po. At least kahit papano may na-aliw at may silbi ....

I know mate. That is why it is worth my time reading all your posts.:)

[aja]

Oh no!! Are we going to start??

You can't blame the christians. Jesus Christ was very specific when he went up to heaven ( Whatever it means heh he he he . . ) Go out to the world and proclaim the good news not only to the Jews but to the gentiles as well. And here's the gentle caveat from JC himself, he said that whoever denies him, will be denied in heaven. And the prize catch like whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven Heh he he:D can you beat that? Once you become a christian you get locked up. No more escape. You are obligated to preach and convert as many as you can. Otherwise you will be guilty of the parable of talents.

Here's the best summary of it. Christian fanatics are inspired by the holy spirit to preach, proselytise and convert people like you. You are a big challenge to them you know?:p :D

I agree and disagree. Yes we are asked to proclaim the word of God but not obligated to do so, paano naman yong mga homebound. Kung ini-isip mo ay we have to go out there knocking door to door at people's homes or distributing pamphlets on the street or stand on a street corner preaching to people passing by through a mega-phone - you know what I mean.

You don't have to do all that, you can spread the good news by simply living out a Christian life. Be a good example or a model to your family, your friends, your neighbors and all the people that you get in contact with in your daily activities. Actions speaks louder than words, if you claim to be a Christian or a true believer in your God whatever faith you belong to, and if you talk the talk, you must also walk the talk.

[gabby]

I agree and disagree. Yes we are asked to proclaim the word of God but not obligated to do so, paano naman yong mga homebound. Kung ini-isip mo ay we have to go out there knocking door to door at people's homes or distributing pamphlets on the street or stand on a street corner preaching to people passing by through a mega-phone - you know what I mean.

You don't have to do all that, you can spread the good news by simply living out a Christian life. Be a good example or a model to your family, your friends, your neighbors and all the people that you get in contact with in your daily activities. Actions speaks louder than words, if you claim to be a Christian or a true believer in your God whatever faith you belong to, and if you talk the talk, you must also walk the talk.


Heh he he :p Natawa naman ako sa iyo.

Good for you Aja. If you really are doing that then you are not guilty of the parable of talents. :)

[adechan]

Winning souls. Such a noble gesture. But how do you define that act? Does it mean turning them from evil? Giving hope where there is despair? Showing that you care when no one else does? Is it simply altruism? or does it mean to make them believe in what you believe in? To 'convert' them into your religion? If so, then the nobility of the act is diminished dont you think?

Truth? what is Truth? is it Truth that is authorized by the catholic church? or truth made evident by common observation? Can souls be saved by using logic and science? Can good men be turned from evil by showing them evidence of the suffering their actions cause? Can souls be saved through science and logic? If its possible, then if you truly want to save souls, is it not more effective to use logic and reason than to quote verses from the bible? because most lost souls do not read the bible. People that read and understand the bible are already saved or at least on their way. If you really want to 'save souls', logic is the tool. But first you have to define, what it means when you say 'winning souls'.

ooyyyyy ........ dahan dahan lang naman ay! ......... napakadaming question mark nito ah ...... puso mo ..... ok ka lang?

i-short cut ko na lang about winning soul, winning soul is not my total job. I'm only a part of it in a very very small part. And I can only be a part of it in a big portion perhaps if the time came na ready na ako for evangelizing ministry.

Sharing bible verses is a part of my life, because those are what I am reading and learning those how to apply on my life. So if I am here sharing this stuffs from the Bible, it is because it is what I have

Hindi naman siguro masama ang mag share nang isang bagay na nararanasan mo at alam mong totoo sa buhay mo, di ba?

And probably I can share more about it, if it is God's will for me to be a part of soul winning ministry.

[adechan]

in fairness ....

Nemoyspruce .... i will try to answer your questions when i get time to sit longer, at maganda ganda na ang takbo nang timog ... bagal eh

[NemoySpruce]

ooyyyyy ........ dahan dahan lang naman ay! ......... napakadaming question mark nito ah ...... puso mo ..... ok ka lang?


ahhihi. sorry po mam :) indi ko nman expected na sagotin lahat nun. and i have nothing against sharing verses from the bible, as long as the intention is sharing wisdom and not condemming or proselytizing. As i have said before, we can gain a lot of wisdom from the bible, and i encourage reading it.

nabangit nyo lang po kasi yung winning souls, ay matagal ko nang naisip ito, na kung sa pamamagitan ng science at logic kaya ipakita sa tao kung bakit mali ang ginagawa nya, ay hindi po kaya mas maraming ma sagip na kaluluwa? kahit hindi na sila maniwala sa dyos, bastat gumawa ng mabuti, masasagip kaya sila?

[VeeGee]

Hello,NemoySpruce!
I would like to say something about the last question you made,"Kahit hindi na sila maniwala sa dyos....?". I am a christian myself and had an opportunity to look what's inside the bible,carefully examined it then I went to a point wherein I was convinced that this is where the truth lies...but forget the word "truth" meantime..Every soul is dear to God,believer or not..but every man has a tendency to go wrong or do evil that could harm other souls even himself ...yung understanding mo tungkol sa masasagip ,palagay ko you equal it with getting recognized by God or acceptable to God. Para siyang magulang na gusto kang bigyan ng mga babala to save yourself from harm,yun lang yun...

[NemoySpruce]

Good evening po VeeGee,

medyo nalito po ako dun. are you asking me what i think are the criteria para masagip ang isang kaluluwa? sa pagkaalam ko po, basta hindi mapunta nang impyerno eh nasagip sya. So ang tanong ko po ay, possible bang masagip ang isang kaluluwa, dahil gumawa sya ng mabuti (hindi pumatay, tumulong sa kapwa etc..) pero hindi sya naniniwala sa catholic or christian God?

Hello,NemoySpruce!
I would like to say something about the last question you made,"Kahit hindi na sila maniwala sa dyos....?". I am a christian myself and had an opportunity to look what's inside the bible,carefully examined it then I went to a point wherein I was convinced that this is where the truth lies...but forget the word "truth" meantime..Every soul is dear to God,believer or not..but every man has a tendency to go wrong or do evil that could harm other souls even himself ...yung understanding mo tungkol sa masasagip ,palagay ko you equal it with getting recognized by God or acceptable to God. Para siyang magulang na gusto kang bigyan ng mga babala to save yourself from harm,yun lang yun...

[VeeGee]

Hi, just what I thought, too many words would miss the point, halo-halo na.
Okey, what is your idea about redemption?Am I correct to assume that only christians can be saved sounds ridiculous to you?What about the rest who does good, you thought they deserve to be saved as well...and I pretty understand how disturbing that could be, because it is.
When I said, God is dear to all, it means, lahat ng tao.Kristyano o hindi, sceptics,pagan,agnos tic,criminal,eh pantay sa kanya.gumawa ka man ng masama o hindi.
Now, allow me:
Anyone who does good is good, so you'll be saved from ...troubles.
Anyone who does bad may get him into trouble but definitely not in hell,may record ba na may pumunta na doon?
sometimes there are misleading teachings that drives you away from God such as the idea of hell. Pity. To know and understand God's messages is a wonderful experience you could get. Thank sa response mo nga pala. I am happy to see more of your quips.

[NemoySpruce]

Hello VeeGee,

unang una po, gusto ko lang sabihin na Im agnostic. So wala po akong tiyak na kasagutan sa lahat ng mga katanungan mo. Being agnostic has advantages, I dont have to provide answers, only questions :)

Only christians can be saved.. i wouldnt say ridiculous. I would say, unlikely. If it were true, then God could not be called a merciful God. Many people are born and raised to believe other religions. A great majority of humanity will end up in hell.

...anyway po to get back on topic. One of the main ideas posted by the thread starter is the common christian belief that anything of this world (material) is evil. Jesus has implied that this world is the dominion of satan. One of the notes on the second post reads (Satan is the god of the present world system) Jesus teaches that we should not accumulate worldly wealth, we should try to accumulate wealth in heaven, because life here is temporary, while life in heaven is everlasting. In short: human world=bad, Spiritual world=good.

So if you believe in that then, money, fame, food, wine, art, cars, clothes (fashion), internet, computers, electricity...anythi ng that you appreciate for pleasure and not need... is evil. You are not supposed to enjoy your life. You have to sacrifice it for others, do some good, die then go to heaven, then start enjoying there. this is how I understand it... do you folks agree?





Hi, just what I thought, too many words would miss the point, halo-halo na.
Okey, what is your idea about redemption?Am I correct to assume that only christians can be saved sounds ridiculous to you?What about the rest who does good, you thought they deserve to be saved as well...and I pretty understand how disturbing that could be, because it is.
When I said, God is dear to all, it means, lahat ng tao.Kristyano o hindi, sceptics,pagan,agnos tic,criminal,eh pantay sa kanya.gumawa ka man ng masama o hindi.
Now, allow me:
Anyone who does good is good, so you'll be saved from ...troubles.
Anyone who does bad may get him into trouble but definitely not in hell,may record ba na may pumunta na doon?
sometimes there are misleading teachings that drives you away from God such as the idea of hell. Pity. To know and understand God's messages is a wonderful experience you could get. Thank sa response mo nga pala. I am happy to see more of your quips.

[adechan]

let me just make a quick comment on this

So if you believe in that then, money, fame, food, wine, art, cars, clothes (fashion), internet, computers, electricity...anythi ng that you appreciate for pleasure and not need... is evil. You are not supposed to enjoy your life. You have to sacrifice it for others, do some good, die then go to heaven, then start enjoying there. this is how I understand it... do you folks agree?i understand how you view it that way, even Christians can feel that same way

May katotohanan ang sinasabi mo. That is why, it really needs a lot of faith to follow God. But once you choose God, you will find satisfaction inside your heart that the enjoyment of this world cannot give.

At first, when I realized this teaching and understanding, talagang tinanong ko sa sa sarili ko, ok lang ba ako? I felt so weird, and felt really very different from others. Atama okashi nga ba ako.

Pero sa patuloy na paniniwala sa Dios at patuloy nag pag-aaral nang Bibliya, doon ko naunawaan na totoo pala ang sinasabing bunga nang Holy Spirit
Galatians 5:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%20 5:22-23&version=9) .

And to be honest there is a satisfaction in my inner part. And that satisfaction is a much greater joy, than enjoying the things of this world. And because of that I really found more joy living in this kind of world. My financial life might be having the worst financial disaster, my beloved might leaved me, people betrayed me, mocked me, the whole world's economy dropped down, a big earthquake, and any other calamity and the likes, my soul lives in peace, and I believe God will lead me what to do. And those who believe God, He will never ever forsake them.

Therefore, knowing what is this world's relation to spiritual life, you will know how to walk in spirit believing God, while you are still here living and surviving in the world.

[VeeGee]

Hello VeeGee,

unang una po, gusto ko lang sabihin na Im agnostic. So wala po akong tiyak na kasagutan sa lahat ng mga katanungan mo. Being agnostic has advantages, I dont have to provide answers, only questions :)

* This is a mere interesting exchanges, don't worry..we're just on opposite ends of a line.,so we are equally cool about this;)

Only christians can be saved.. i wouldnt say ridiculous. I would say, unlikely. If it were true, then God could not be called a merciful God. Many people are born and raised to believe other religions. A great majority of humanity will end up in hell.

　　*　only christians can be saved is not TRUE! No one will go to hell, and that is TRUE.
It's so obvious that you get the wrong ideas about these. When you said that people are raised to believe other religions, well, that is a fact that is supposed to happen, it is bound to happen actually, those events are foreseen thousand years ago.

...anyway po to get back on topic. One of the main ideas posted by the thread starter is the common christian belief that anything of this world (material) is evil. Jesus has implied that this world is the dominion of satan. One of the notes on the second post reads (Satan is the god of the present world system) Jesus teaches that we should not accumulate worldly wealth, we should try to accumulate wealth in heaven, because life here is temporary, while life in heaven is everlasting. In short: human world=bad, Spiritual world=good.

* Material things are necessayr,I guarantee you, God didn't tell not to enjoy these things.God is a happy god, so its illogical to deny us these, di ba. Get rich,why not!Nothing is wrong with that. My question now is this, what if you can't get rich, what is left, anyway.
I am interested to hear your say about this. When you answer this question, let us not involve God for a while, just stick to the question, ok.:O

So if you believe in that then, money, fame, food, wine, art, cars, clothes (fashion), internet, computers, electricity...anythi ng that you appreciate for pleasure and not need... is evil. You are not supposed to enjoy your life. You have to sacrifice it for others, do some good, die then go to heaven, then start enjoying there. this is how I understand it... do you folks agree?

Again, iyong heaven na sinasabi mo rito eh parang lugar na physically existent na medyo
malayo lang sa planet earth....kung patay ka na paano ka pupunta sa heaven, ang labo yata nun... bata lang ang mapapaniwala mo sa ganyan, kaya ka nakapagtatanong,dahi l tama ka parang merong hindi tama tungkol sa bagay na ito.If you are willing to hear explanations, I can do that. to defend the God that I worship that you barely know.You are free to say no,of course:)

[adechan]

I just want to revive this.

This thread gave me different reactions even in private, and I believe there is still someone out there who needs this.

reposting:

The Christian's Relationship to The World & Spiritual Separation
1 John 2:15-16
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world – the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does – comes not from the Father but from the world.

The term “word” (Gk kosmos) often refers to the vast system of this age that Satan promotes and that exists independent of God. It consists not only in the obviously evil, immoral and sinful pleasures of the world, but also refers to the spirit of rebellion against or indifference to God and his revelation that exists within all human enterprises not under Christ’s lordship.

In this age Satan uses the world’s ideas, morality, philosophies, psychology, desires, governments, culture, education, science, art, medicine, music, economic systems, entertainment, mass media, religions, sports, agriculture, etc., to oppose God, his people, his Word and his righteous standards. (Mt 16:26; 1Co 2:12; 3:19; Titus 2:12; 1Jn 2:15-16.

For example, Satan will use the medical profession to promote the killing of unborn babies, agriculture to produce life-destroying drugs such as alcohol and narcotics, educational systems to promote ungodly and humanistic philosophy, and the entertainment media to destroy godly standards.

Believers must be aware that behind all human enterprises there is a spirit or power that moves against God and his Word, some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree.

Finally, the “world” also includes all man-made religious systems and all unbiblical, worldly or lukewarm “Christian” organizations and churches.

Believers must be aware that behind all human enterprises there is a spirit or power that moves against God and his Word, some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree.

Satan is the god of the present world system. (Mt 4:10, Jn 12:21; 14:30; 16:11; 2Co 4:4; 1Jn 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%204:10,%2 0Jn%2012:21;%2014:30 ;%2016:11;%202Co%204 :4;%201Jn%205:19;&version=9;)). Along with a host of subordinate evil spirits, he controls it (Da 10:13; Lk 4:5-7; Eph 6:12-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Da%2010:13;% 20Lk%204:5-7;%20Eph%206:12-13;%202Co%204:4;%201 Jn%205:19;&version=9;)).
Satan has organized the world into political, cultural, economic and religious systems that are innately hostile toward God and his people ( Jn 7:7; 15:18; Jas 4:4; 1Jn 2:16,18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%207:7;%20 15:18;%20Jas%204:4;% 201Jn%202:16,18&version=9)) and that refuse to submit to his truth, which exposes its evil (Jn 7:7)
The world and the true church are two distinct groups of people. The world is under Satan's dominion; the church belongs exclusively to God. Thus believers must separate themselves from the world.It is really easy for us Christian to understand what we are in this world, so that we might understand more what are the things the Bible teaches us, and what God wants us to be so we can make our faith right and more stronger

4. In the world believers are aliens and strangers Hebrews 11:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2011 :13;&version=9;); 1Peter 2:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter%202:1 1;&version=9;))
a. they must come out of the world == John 15:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:19 ;&version=9;),
not be conformed to the world == Romans 12:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012: 2;&version=9;)
not love the world == 1John 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John%202:15 ;&version=9;)
overcome the world == 1John 5:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John%205:4;&version=9;)
hate the world's evil == Hebrews 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%201: 9;&version=9;)
die to the world == Galatians 6:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%20 6:14;&version=9;)
and be delivered from the world == Collosians 1:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Collosians%2 01:13-14;&version=9;)

b. Loving the world defiles our fellowship with God and leads to spiritual destruction. It is impossible to love the world and the Father at the same time.

To love the world means to be in intimate fellowship with and devoted to its values, interest, ways and pleasures; it means taking pleasure in or enjoying what is offensive and opposed to God.

Note, of course, that the terms "world" and "earth" are not synonymous; God does not forbid a love for the created earth, e.i., nature, mountains, forests, etc.

to be continued