The cross of Jesus

[peacemaker]

Hello everyone!

Next month ay atin na namang gugunitain ang pagkamatay ni Jesus sa cross. Itoy naging tradisyon na ng mga Kristiano for almost 2000 years already.　Ang mga Kristiano ay naniniwala na ang kamatayan lamang ni Jesus sa cross ang tanging paraan upang mailigtas niya ang sangkatauhan. Totoo kaya ito?

Itoy naitanong ko dahil lingid pala sa ating kaalaman na maliban sa hula na ang mesiya ay makaranas ng paghihirap at mamatay (lord of suffering) na nakasaad sa Isiah 53 ng bibliya, may hula rin pala na siya ay mabubuhay at maging King of kings (lord of glory) na nakasaad sa Isiah 9, 11, 60 at luke 1:31-33.

Ibig sabihin pala nito na ang kapalaran o tadhana ng buhay ni Jesus ay maging alinman sa dalawa: mabuhay o di kayay mamatay at ang mga tao sa kanyang panahon ang magpasiya. Ngunit napili ng mga tao ang hula sa Isiah 53 na si Kristo ay maghirap at mamatay.

Kung sana ay hindi lang pinatay si Jesus ng mga tao sa kanyang panahon, ang buong kaligtasan (complete salvation) ng sangkatauhan ay naibigay na niya sa panahon na iyon , mayroon na sana tayong maka-Diyos at mapayapang mundo at hindi na sana siya babalik pa sa pangalawang pagkakataon.

Maraming salamat.

Note: a follow up thread of jhunex

[rajjah]

Hello everyone!


Kung sana ay hindi lang pinatay si Jesus ng mga tao sa kanyang panahon, ang buong kaligtasan (complete salvation) ng sangkatauhan ay naibigay na niya sa panahon na iyon , mayroon na sana tayong maka-Diyos at mapayapang mundo at hindi na sana siya babalik pa sa pangalawang pagkakataon.

Maraming salamat.

Note: a follow up thread of jhunex


1. Jesus has to die so he can fulfill his father's command otherwise he would be like Adam and Eve who disobeyed God. I think the very purpose why he came was to die on the cross. It already was scripted by God with him as director and Jesus as the central character.

2. Jesus himself said; My kingdom is not of this world. In other words he has to die and the world is really condemned to eternal wars,killings and human sufferings and God has intended Jesus his son as some sort of a door to something else. Whatever it is we don't know unless we die now.

There will never ever peace in the world because Jesus let the plants and the weeds to grow together and be saved for judgment day.:) So for all the faithfuls and believers be like snakes and sheep among the wolves. Peace people!! :)

[jhunex]

Christian have traditionally believed that Jesus' death on the cross was the original plan of God. No! This is absolutely false. It was the Israelite's ignorance of God's will that led to the crucufixion of Jesus. God's will was clearly to lead the chosen people to believe in and accept the Messiah and be saved (John 6:29). The Jewish people did not know who Jesus of Nazareth was, for they even jeered that they would believe in Him as savior only if he would come down from the cross, even as he hung dying. John 1:11 says, "He came to his own home, and his own people received him not." Paul also testified that "none of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1Cor. 2:8).

Christians everywhere today do not know what actually occurred at the time of Jesus. If it was God's will solely to crucify his Son, why did He prepare a chosen people for so long? Wasn't it expressly to protect His Son from a disbelieving world?

In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed, "My soul is very sorrowfu, even to death...My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me" (Matt. 26:36-38). Jesus uttered this prayer, not once, but three times. Many Christians today believe that although his mission was to die on the cross, Jesus out of human weakness, uttered this timid prayer. But, could Jesus Christ, the savior of mankind, utter any prayer out of weakness?

Neither the first Christian martyr, Stephen, nor any of the many martyrs who followed ever prayed from such weakness. Did they ever ask, "Let this cup pass from me" as they were dying? What makes present-day Christians believe that Jesus was weaker than these martyrs? Especially because his sole purpose of coming to this world was to save mankind, why did Jesus pray this way?

Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane was not a self-centered or timid prayer, uttered out of fear of dying. Rather, if there were any way-any way at all-that Jesus could have saved mankind, he would have gladly died hundreds of times over. He had been working all his life to accomplis his messianic mission and to realize God's purpose of creation here on earth.

If dying on the cross was predestined by God, why did Jesus say to Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him, "Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" (Matt. 26:24).

Moreover, how can we explain Jesus' cry on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If the crucifixion was the only way God prepared for Jesus, why didn't he feel resounding joy upon successfully completing his mission?

The crucifixion was not God's original will for Jesus, the Son of God; rather, it became God's painful alternative caused by the distrust of the people of Israel. What would have happened if all the people of Israel believed in Jesus and welcomed and loved him?
Most certainly, salvation would have been realized. The purpose of creation would have been accomplished and thereby the Kingdom of Heaven on earth established. The people of Israel would have become the honored central nation of that ideal world and division would never have arisen between Judaism and Christianity nor would either of them have had to undergo the tribulation they have endured. Furthermore, because the will of God would have been done on earth, the Second Coming of Christ would have been totally unnecessary.

[adechan]

Christian have traditionally believed that Jesus' death on the cross was the original plan of God. No! This is absolutely false. It was the Israelite's ignorance of God's will that led to the crucufixion of Jesus. God's will was clearly to lead the chosen people to believe in and accept the Messiah and be saved (John 6:29). The Jewish people did not know who Jesus of Nazareth was, for they

The crucifixion was not God's original will for Jesus, the Son of God; rather, it became God's painful alternative caused by the distrust of the people of Israel. What would have happened if all the people of Israel believed in Jesus and welcomed and loved him?
Most certainly, salvation would have been realized. The purpose of creation would have been accomplished and thereby the Kingdom of Heaven on earth established. The people of Israel would have become the honored central nation of that ideal world and division would never have arisen between Judaism and Christianity nor would either of them have had to undergo the tribulation they have endured. Furthermore, because the will of God would have been done on earth, the Second Coming of Christ would have been totally unnecessary.

Blessings

In this part of your teaching, I complain not, I agree.

The enemy will do anything to destroy God's plan. The enemy did won when Jesus died on the cross. But it was a mistake on the enemy's part. It was been the very way of how Jesus took the sacrifice for all of us. And Jesus did won over the enemy when God the Father resurrected Christ Jesus.

It was, doubt, envy, suspicion, procastination, pride, unbelief, betrayal, etc. etc. etc. that lead Jesus unto the cross.

To unmask the enemy's work, all negative things came from him. It is his unseen develish work manupulated the hearts of the jews.

hope i made the point

In Christ

[peacemaker]

1. Jesus has to die so he can fulfill his father's command otherwise he would be like Adam and Eve who disobeyed God. I think the very purpose why he came was to die on the cross. It already was scripted by God with him as director and Jesus as the central character.

2. Jesus himself said; My kingdom is not of this world. In other words he has to die and the world is really condemned to eternal wars,killings and human sufferings and God has intended Jesus his son as some sort of a door to something else. Whatever it is we don't know unless we die now.

There will never ever peace in the world because Jesus let the plants and the weeds to grow together and be saved for judgment day.:) So for all the faithfuls and believers be like snakes and sheep among the wolves. Peace people!! :)

Salamat rajjah sa iyong response:)

Scripted kaya ni Lord ang death ni Jesus sa cross o baka kaya itoy resulta sa kanilang ignorance and disbelief about his being saviour? If really God's will talaga na mamatay si Jesus then bakit may iba pang hula sa bibliya na siya ay mabubuhay? Di ba itoy nagpapahiwatig lamang na hindi talaga absolutely mamatay si Jesus? Then who will decide his life? I think its not God but the people of his time.

The bible have mentioned:

Jn. 1:1 --- "Jesus came to his own home but the people received him not".

1 Cor. 2:8 --- "None of the ruler of this age understood this; for if they had they would not have crucified the lord of glory".

God wants the people to accept and believe Jesus and not to kill him as indicated in Jn 6:29; 10:37,38.

Scripted din kaya ng Lord that Judas will kill himself after his betrayal to his master? o di kayay dahil sa sobrang mental torture na naging instument siya sa pagkamatay ni jesus sa cross?

Scripted din kaya ng Lord na si satan ay papasok sa katawan ni Judas upang gawin siyang instumento upang mamatay ang messiah?

Sa makatuwid, ang death ni Jesus sa cross ay resulta lamang sa hindi nila pagtanggap at pagsunod sa kanya. Ang death ni jesus sa cross ay naging other alternative plan of God to save people. His first plan is to let Jesus live and do his messianic mission but if the people will not accept and follow him then the prophecy that he will die will be realized.

[jhunex]

Blessings

In this part of your teaching, I complain not, I agree.

The enemy will do anything to destroy God's plan. The enemy did won when Jesus died on the cross. But it was a mistake on the enemy's part. It was been the very way of how Jesus took the sacrifice for all of us. And Jesus did won over the enemy when God the Father resurrected Christ Jesus.

It was, doubt, envy, suspicion, procastination, pride, unbelief, betrayal, etc. etc. etc. that lead Jesus unto the cross.

To unmask the enemy's work, all negative things came from him. It is his unseen develish work manupulated the hearts of the jews.

hope i made the point

In Christ

Hi! adechan

Thank you so much for your reply but this is not my own teaching. :)

Actually I get it from the "Divine Principle" and studied it. So I recommend to watch the "Purpose of the Messiah (http://www.familyfed.org/usa/video2003/20030326_4.wmv)" to know more the teaching about the crucifixion of Jesus and His Second Advent.

John 16:25,"I have yet many things to say, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth" Jesus said.

I.M.N.:)

[fisher]

1. Jesus has to die so he can fulfill his father's command otherwise he would be like Adam and Eve who disobeyed God. I think the very purpose why he came was to die on the cross. It already was scripted by God with him as director and Jesus as the central character.

2. Jesus himself said; My kingdom is not of this world. In other words he has to die and the world is really condemned to eternal wars,killings and human sufferings and God has intended Jesus his son as some sort of a door to something else. Whatever it is we don't know unless we die now.

There will never ever peace in the world because Jesus let the plants and the weeds to grow together and be saved for judgment day.:) So for all the faithfuls and believers be like snakes and sheep among the wolves. Peace people!! :)Well done Rajjah!:D .

[richie]

[quote=rajjah] I think the very purpose why he came was to die on the cross.

Yes...only His precious blood redeems man from sin...(1Peter 1:18-19).. His precious blood that flowed from Calvary...this marked God's Messianic Covenant in this last dispensation!
The New Testament ( Testament, Will, Covenant) has been established with the blood of Jesus Christ ( Matt.26:27-28 "This is my blood of the Covenant, which is poured for many for the forgiveness of sins...; mark 14:23-24; Luke 22:20; 1Cor. 11:25; Heb. 9:16-28; 12:22-24)

In the olden days, God's Covenant with Israel was ratified with the blood of animal sacrifices (Exodus 24:3-8; Ps. 50:5; Heb. 9:18-22). "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness."


It already was scripted by God ...

It was. In Luke 24: 25-27 ".....and beginning with Moses and all the Prophets....." and in verse 44, "....Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

2. Jesus himself said; My kingdom is not of this world. In other words he has to die and the world is really condemned to eternal wars,killings and human sufferings and God has intended Jesus his son as some sort of a door to something else.

To die and resurrected to be the Savior.

[jhunex]

It broke Jesus' heart that the chosen people would not listen to him. There are passages that tell of his agony and pain when Israel rejected him: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate"(Matt.23:37-38). This shows God's feminine and motherly heart towards his children in the original Greek this passage is inadequately translated because it does not give the exact meaning of what the author is saying. The word compassion used in Greek means guts or entrails meaning that Jesus felt in the very depth of his feelings his love and pain for mankind.

Jesus became desperate. He ached and wept because the people would not listen to him tell of the revelations of God he had received. After three years of preaching Jesus found himself alone. God's heart was broken again. God could see that Satan had turned the people against Jesus so much that it was now inevitable that Jesus would be killed by his own people. Some didn't like his message; some were critical of his lifestyle; some disagreed with his polotical attitude; some were angered by what to them seemed arrogant authority. Jesus had to tell his disciples:"Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ"(Matt. 16:20). Jesus said those who follow him will be "hated" as he is hated now.

God told him on the Mount of Transfiguration that his mission must change, and he must go to the cross and give only partial salvation to mankind in the spirit world. Moses and Elijah appeared to him. Peter was excited to see this but Jesus surprised them by changing his approach. Jesus asked his disciples,"...who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him,'you are the Christ'. And he changed them to tell no one about him"(Mark 8:29-30)

The disciples had barely know him. They were simple, uneducated and not so religious. When Jesus told Peter he would betray him, Peter denied it and swore he would never betray him. But Jesus is a keen observer of human beings, and he sees our spiritual level just as a teacher can see the level of his students. Peter says,"Though they all fall away because of you, I will not deny you. And so said all the disciples".(Matt.26:33).

[richie]

In Mark 8:31, Jesus predicts His death........that He must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took Him aside and begun to rebuke him. But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked peter, "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." This is the reason why He said to Peter in the earlier verse in Mark 8:30, not to tell anyone about Him (about being the Christ) because His time (of death) has not yet come.

Jesus Christ was destined to die for the remission of our sins and resurrected on the third day!
His death and His blood that flowed on Calvary redeemed mankinds' sins and continues to redeem our sins until the day we die our earthly death, with His condition that we endeavor to follow and be obedient to His commandments. If in our endeavor we fall down and sin, we have to sincerely(He knows our Hearts) ask for His forgiveness, His death and blood continues to forgive us, this is the very meaning of His death. Everytime we sin, we do not need to kill and sacrifice animals to take away our sins, just like in the old Testament, or for Jesus Christ to keep dying because He already did it once and for all for those who will follow Him.

Sin, is a very very serious matter with God. He instructed the Jews in the Old Testament on how to cleanse their sins, by killing and offering of animals. A blooded living thing has to die because of a single sin!

Nobody can ever cleanse his own sin except through the blood of Jesus and His grace! He is our Saviour.

"Nothing impure will ever enter it..........but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life!" Rev.21:27.

[jhunex]

Christian believe that Jesus' death was predestined because of the prophecy in Isaiah 53;"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed"(Is. 53:4-5). This has been interpreted as a prophecy of a Lord of Suffering. But the Jewish people did not think the 'Messiah' would suffer, have to die and then return later as a Lord of Glory. The cross was not predestined anymore than Adam's fall was predestined.

If the crucifixion was predestined, why didn't the disciples understand this and be happy? If the crucifixion was the only way Jesus could save mankind, why were the disciples angry and say it was a mistake? Peter said,"You denied the Holy and Righteous one, and killed the author of life."(Acts 3:15). Stephen told a crowd of religious leaders,"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in hearts and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your father did, so do you. Which of the prophets did not your father persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered"(Acts 7:51-53)
Later, Paul said,"None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory"(1Cor. 2:8). Jesus' disciples understood Jesus far better than the Christians of Today. They knew Jesus wanted to build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in their lifetimes. They knew he didn't come to die.

And if the crucifixion is the predestined will of God then Judas would be helping God. But this is preposterous. Judas himself realized his terrible mistake and committed suicide. We don't honor Judas today. People who commit serious crime are often led by an evil angel or an evil spirit man. After the crime takes place the spirit often leaves the person who then can only say he was out of control. Satan personally worked with Judas:"Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot....He went away and conferred with the chief priests and captains how he might betray him to them"(Luke 22:3). Judas later threw the 30 pieces of silver back and hung himself. He was possessed. Satan is powerful. Judas' crime was so great that Jesus said of him: "the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born."(Matt 26:24)

If God had wanted Jesus to be killed, why would he have prepared the Jewish people to accept the 'Messiah'? God had spent 2000 years trying to raise Israel to accept Jesus as the 'Messiah', not kill him. God laboriously and painstakingly had the Israelites center their faith on the ark of the covenant, then the temple. He sent prophets to keep the people on course. He tried to teach them to be like sheep and to be humble so that when the shepherd or 'Messiah' came they would unite and support him. If God had wanted Jesus to be killed, He could have sent Jesus to a land of barbarians, and they would have killed him sooner.

Finally, Jesus himself said that he did not have to be crucified to save mankind. In the parable of the vineyard Jesus tells the story of a "householder" who is symbolic of God who planted a vineyard which is symbolic of Israel and "let it out to tenants" who symbolize the Israelites. The tenants kill the householder's servants and then his son. The owner expected them to "respect" his son and was sorrowful when they killed him. Jesus is explaining that God wanted the chosen people of Israel to respect Jesus--not to kill him.
Once a disciple asked Jesus, "What must we do to be doing the works of God?" Jesus did not say "Crucify me on a cross so I can give you salvation". Instead, Jesus said,"It is the work of God that you believe in him whom he has sent"(John 6:29)

For sin to be forgiven, the people simply had to believe in him. Jesus said that "The son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin"(Matt. 9:6). He didn't say he had to die to forgive sin. He could forgive sin on earth.
If the chosen people of Israel had accepted Jesus they would have been saved. Jesus pleaded with the Israelites to believe in him: "And when he drew near and saw the city he wept over it saying,'Would that even today you knew the things that make for peace. But now they are hid from your eyes because you did not know the time of your visitation"(Luke 19:41-44), Jesus wept. Can you picture Jesus crying? Jesus cried more than any person who has ever lived, and he didn't cry for himself. He cried because he knew he could end all suffering, but his fellow countrymen would not listen to him. Jesus said,"The truth will set you free"(John8:32). But the people wouldn't hear him. He never said the crucifixion would set anybody free. Mankind is still living a hell on earth. Obviously the crucifixion has not stopped Satan from being the ruler of this world.

[jhunex]

[quote=richie][quote=rajjah] I think the very purpose why he came was to die on the cross.

Christ had to shed blood to atone because of the faithlessness of Israel. However, the Old Testament blood sacrificial system is declared by God to be less preffed and superseded by faith(Hosea 6:6 and 1Samuel 15:22). God desires mercy and acknowledgement of God rather than blood. Therefore, If Israel had shown faith in Jesus, the condition of faith would have superseded the necessity of blood "under the law". That is why we see forgiveness bequeathed to the sinner when ever that condition was present(Luke 5:22, 7:27) and without the shedding of blood.

Hebrews 9:22...it is stating that "nearly everything" is required by the law to be atoned for by blood. Therefore there are a few things where atonement is accomplished without blood, and where the requirement, under law for blood does not apply. Thus we see examples of atonement without blood: Leviticus 16:10 and Proverbs 16:6 and we see God's stated preference over the tradition of blood atonement: Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:7-8, 1Sam. 15:22. We see also, at the time of Jesus, that faith superseded the requirement for blood: Luke 5:20 and 7:47. If Hebrews 9:22 is absolute, how could Jesus give forgiveness if there is no forgiveness until the shedding of blood.
Faith superseded the requirement for blood. Jesus died to break the curse of the law(Gal. 3:13) that curse was invoked because of the failure of the people to heed Elijah(Mal.4:4-5). The people failed to heed Elijah because Elijah(John) denied that he was the Elijah(John1:21). But you and I can agree; that it is the shed blood of Christ that serves as the atoning agent for us all.

John 18:36..He was talking to Pilate about his kingship. But Jesus does not mean that at no time will the Kingdom have and earthly manifestation, for He goes on to say, but now my Kingdom is not from hence (this world). His Kingdom was to be of this world and would have been if they had faith in Him, but beginning in the last year of His ministry(Matt. 16:21). His Kingdom would not be of this world and only have a spiritual manifestation. He must therefore return to bring the substantial Kingdom on earth. Thus we see Acts 3:21, Hebrews 9:28 and 1Peter 1:5, Rev. 21:1.:)

[peacemaker]

Dual Prophecies in the Old Testament lead people to that conclusion.

1. A suffering and rejected Messiah was predicted.

Isaiah 53 (3)"He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Psalms 89:38 "But now thou hast cast off and rejected, thou art full of wrath against thy anointed."

Zechariah 11:4 "Thus said the Lord my God: 'Become shepherd of the flock doomed to slaughter."

Zechariah 11:7 "So I became the shepherd of the flock doomed to be slain for those who trafficked in the sheep .....

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication so that, when they lock on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born."

Psalms 2:1-2 "Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and His anointed..."

Psalms 22:6-8 "But I am a worm and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people. All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me they wag their heads; 'He committed his cause to the Lord; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"

Psalms 22:16-18 "Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet--I can count all my bones--they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots."

Matthew 16:21 "From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying 'God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you.' But he turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men." (Also Jesus spoke of his crucifixion in Matthew 17:23, 20:18, 26:2; Mark 8:30-33,9:31; Luke 9:21-22,18:31,10:33)

2. A triumphal and glorious Lord who reigns over Israel forever was also predicted.

Psalms 72:11 "May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!"

Psalms 2:7-8 "I will tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession."

Isaiah 40:11 "He will feed his flock like a shepherd, he will gather the lambs in his arms, he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are young."

Isaiah 2:4 "He shall judge between the nations; and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hocks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Also Micah 4:1-4)

Isaiah 9:7 "Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forever more. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will do this."

Isaiah 2:17 "And the haughtiness of man shall be humbled, and the pride of men shall be brought low; and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day."

Psalms 89:27,29 "And I will make him the first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth...I will establish his line forever and his throne as the days of the heavens."

Zechariah 9:9 "Rejoice greatly, 0 daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he,"

Psalms 110:1-7 (2) "The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of you foes!"

Isaiah 60 (2-3) "but the Lord will arise upon you, and nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising..."

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever;"

Amos 9:11-15 (14) "I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit."

Micah 5:4 "And he shall stand and feed his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they shall dwell secure, for now he shall be great to the ends of the earth."

Luke 1:32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end."

Luke 2:38 "And coming up at that very hour she (Anna) gave thanks to God, and spoke of him to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem."

Luke 4:18 "(Jesus reading Old Testament scripture about himself..) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

John 1:49 "Nathaniel answered him, 'Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel."


How could these seemingly contradictory prophecies exist?

Man has free will. He can either follow God's law or reject God's law. God knows that man has free will, and thus knows both possibilities as well as the outcome of each. Therefore, he predicts both courses and it is man's responsibility to choose. For example, in the Garden of Eden, God gave Adam and Eve the commandment, "Don't eat the fruit" (Genesis 2:17). If they obeyed, they lived; if they disobeyed, they died.

[richie]

Christian believe that Jesus' death was predestined because of the prophecy in Isaiah 53;"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed"(Is. 53:4-5). This has been interpreted as a prophecy of a Lord of Suffering. But the Jewish people did not think the 'Messiah' would suffer, have to die and then return later as a Lord of Glory. The cross was not predestined anymore than Adam's fall was predestined.

smitten by God? who?

If the crucifixion was predestined, why didn't the disciples understand this and be happy? If the crucifixion was the only way Jesus could save mankind, why were the disciples angry and say it was a mistake? Peter said,"You denied the Holy and Righteous one, and killed the author of life."(Acts 3:15). Stephen told a crowd of religious leaders,"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in hearts and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your father did, so do you. Which of the prophets did not your father persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered"(Acts 7:51-53)
Later, Paul said,"None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory"(1Cor. 2:8). Jesus' disciples understood Jesus far better than the Christians of Today. They knew Jesus wanted to build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in their lifetimes. They knew he didn't come to die.

It only means they did not understood Jesus not until His death because His death and His resurrection became the revelation.

And if the crucifixion is the predestined will of God then Judas would be helping God. But this is preposterous. Judas himself realized his terrible mistake and committed suicide. We don't honor Judas today. People who commit serious crime are often led by an evil angel or an evil spirit man. After the crime takes place the spirit often leaves the person who then can only say he was out of control. Satan personally worked with Judas:"Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot....He went away and conferred with the chief priests and captains how he might betray him to them"(Luke 22:3). Judas later threw the 30 pieces of silver back and hung himself. He was possessed. Satan is powerful. Judas' crime was so great that Jesus said of him: "the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born."(Matt 26:24)

If God had wanted Jesus to be killed, why would he have prepared the Jewish people to accept the 'Messiah'? God had spent 2000 years trying to raise Israel to accept Jesus as the 'Messiah', not kill him. God laboriously and painstakingly had the Israelites center their faith on the ark of the covenant, then the temple. He sent prophets to keep the people on course. He tried to teach them to be like sheep and to be humble so that when the shepherd or 'Messiah' came they would unite and support him. If God had wanted Jesus to be killed, He could have sent Jesus to a land of barbarians, and they would have killed him sooner.

I do not know where you got this sentence.

Anyway, let us read Hebrews 9:16 until 28,

"In case of a will (testament or covenant), it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a Will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is still living. This is why even the first Covenantwas not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to the people , he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool ...........In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. ......... Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now He had appeared, once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people, and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Finally, Jesus himself said that he did not have to be crucified to save mankind. In the parable of the vineyard Jesus tells the story of a "householder" who is symbolic of God who planted a vineyard which is symbolic of Israel and "let it out to tenants" who symbolize the Israelites. The tenants kill the householder's servants and then his son. The owner expected them to "respect" his son and was sorrowful when they killed him. Jesus is explaining that God wanted the chosen people of Israel to respect Jesus--not to kill him.
Once a disciple asked Jesus, "What must we do to be doing the works of God?" Jesus did not say "Crucify me on a cross so I can give you salvation". Instead, Jesus said,"It is the work of God that you believe in him whom he has sent"(John 6:29)

Read again Hebrew 9: 16 and following. Christ was sacrificed to take away the sins of the world, and after that He will come the second time to save. Nobody could enter the place he promised unless purified, Rev.21:27.

For sin to be forgiven, the people simply had to believe in him. Jesus said that "The son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin"(Matt. 9:6). He didn't say he had to die to forgive sin. He could forgive sin on earth.

You may read again Hebrew 9:16 and following.

If the chosen people of Israel had accepted Jesus they would have been saved.

If.......


Jesus pleaded with the Israelites to believe in him: "And when he drew near and saw the city he wept over it saying,'Would that even today you knew the things that make for peace. But now they are hid from your eyes because you did not know the time of your visitation"(Luke 19:41-44), Jesus wept. Can you picture Jesus crying? Jesus cried more than any person who has ever lived, and he didn't cry for himself. He cried because he knew he could end all suffering, but his fellow countrymen would not listen to him. Jesus said,"The truth will set you free"(John8:32). But the people wouldn't hear him. He never said the crucifixion would set anybody free. Mankind is still living a hell on earth. Obviously the crucifixion has not stopped Satan from being the ruler of this world.

Obviously, because some people keep on resisting the truth!!
They keep looking for new teachings that are modern and up-to -date which actually serve to confuse or damage the faith and draw people away from the True Living God!!

[richie]

I will be away for a week, so I could not reply until that time.

[richie]

My reply on post #14 is not only at the end but can be found in between the sentences or paragraphs of the said post. Medyo unclear, sori.

[jhunex]

Obviously, because some people keep on resisting the truth!!
They keep looking for new teachings that are modern and up-to -date which actually serve to confuse or damage the faith and draw people away from the True Living God!!

Is. 53:4
"....smitten by him...."(NIV)
"....smitten of God..."(KJV)

I got those sentence based on the book called "Divine Principle"

Hebrews 9:28 says,"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sin of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."(NIV)

The Divine Principle fuly affirms the atoning work of Christ as the heart of Christian faith and that the cross was the predestined, pre-planned dispensation of God through which sin was cleansed. There are important differences that I would like to clarify. Though we recognize the predestined nature of the cross, we would not agree that the nature of that predestination was absolute. We would see the cross as a limited or conditional predistined providence which was announced and begun in the last year of the ministry of Jesus.(Matt. 21:16)
The limited predestination centers on the condition of faith in Israel towards Jesus. The responsibility to produce the condition of faith is in the hands of the Chosen People and it is for this reason that God uses the word "if" when declaring the ultimate destiny of Israel(in the law of covenant). Though God declares a twofold potential for Israel with regard to their role and destiny, it is the unmistakable primary will of God that Isarael fulfill the destiny of "blessing" as expressed in Deut. 30:19

Also, we see that the cross, as a dispensation of God, would only be invoked as a consequence of Israel's faithlessness, and thus a primary dispensation, other than the way of the cross, would be fulfilled "if" Israel fulfilled, in faith, toward Jesus. The accomplishment of that primary dispensation is therefore, the central purpose for which Christ comes. This purpose was promised as a central theme of the law covenant's declaration that blessing would be the destiny of Israel on the condition of faith. The vision laid out in OT scripture of a"blessed" Israel is one who accepts the King and establishes His Kingdom from sea to sea. Jesus calling for faith and repentance, stating that "now is the time, the Kingdom is at hand" indicates that God's primary will was to establish His Kingdom at that time and not to divide the fulfillment of Christ's coming into two comings seperated by some 2000 years. But, again, to establish His Kingdom providentially required the faithful response of the Chosen People towards Jesus. When that faith was not forthcoming, just as in the time of Jeremiah, the dispensation turns from the destiny of blessing to one of curse, that is, from the vision of the Kingdom to the dispensation of the cross and a future return of Christ and the establishing of His Kingdom. That turn represents, also, a turn from the primary will to the consequential will and plan of God. It was "from that time" that Jesus began to explain His suffering and death to come(Matt. 21:16), as it was "from that time", resultant of Israel's faithlessness toward Jesus, that the cross becomes the determination of God and the only course of salvation.

This would not be inconsistent with the OT sacrificial system, in that God states that the tradition of blood atonement is less preferred and superseded by the condition of faith in Israel. God desires mercy and acknowledgement of God rather than blood, as expressed in Hosea 6:6 and 1Samuel 15:22. Faith in Jesus in Israel would effectively supersede the requirement of blood "under the law" for atonement. Whenever sinners, in Israel at the time of Jesus, fulfilled that condition(Luke 5:22, 7:27), forgiveness from Jesus, was bequeathed to them. It is also why Hebrews 9:22 cannot declare an absolute OT tradition of blood atonement as the sole means of atonement.
We would not see John's declaration of Jesus as "the Lamb of God" to be an emphatic of the cross, anymore than Jesus declaration in John 21:12, that we are "His lambs" is a prediction that believers will shed their blood.

The purpose of the Divine Principle revelation from God is not to change the heart of Christian faith, but rather to make clear the providential failure of the First Israel and the true purpose for which the Chosen Nation was called. In that realization comes, also the acute awareness that Jesus' heart in Gethsemane was broken for a real reason. It is the desire to comfort that heart that is the true power and impetus driving Rev. Moon. Just as the failure of Cain and Abel returned to be unbound by Jacob and Esau, the failures of the First Israel has returned to be unbound by today's generation of Christians.

[jhunex]

I will be away for a week, so I could not reply until that time.

Okairi Nasai!:)

[richie]

Okairi Nasai!:)

Thanks, Jhunex:)

I think I delivered my point regarding "The Cross of Jesus," so, koko made desu.

Thanks peacemaker for having me here! till then!

[pc2005it]

Quote:
Originally Posted by richie
Obviously, because some people keep on resisting the truth!!
They keep looking for new teachings that are modern and up-to -date which actually serve to confuse or damage the faith and draw people away from the True Living God!!



I don't think so. Sorry sa pagbabara.
sa palagay ko e kailangan din nating mag-upgrade ng kaalaman na mapalapit sa Diyos. Kung ang siyensya ay patuloy ang pananaliksik para mapabuti ang buhay ng tao e gayundin sana ang ating pananaliksik na mapabuti ang magandang relasyon sa Diyos at sa ating kapwa.
Sa mga taong malakas ang pananalig sa Diyos, anuman ang mahanapan nilang bagong kaalaman, e hindi sila mapapariwara. Bigyan natin ng pagkakataon na saliksikin ang mga bagay at mga bagong idea na makakatulong sa pangkalahatan na mapabuti ang ating relasyon sa Diyos at bawat nilalang.