Bible issues

[peacemaker]

A peaceful day to everyone:)

Maraming tao ang naniniwala na ang lahat na nangyayari sa mundo ay kagustuhan ng Dios kahit na nga raw ang pagkasala ni Adan at Eva. Dagdag pa nila na kung hindi raw nagkasala si Adan at Eva ay malamang na walang tao sa mundong ibabaw. Totoo kaya ang mga paniniwalang ito?

[stariray]

Hello nice to meet you peacemaker :) isa rin akong mahilig pag-usapan pag It's about God scriptures but I'm not saying I'am well verse sa bible gusto ko lang din mag share sayo sa napag-aralan ko...you know God created all wonderful things on this earth especially man and a woman and God gives a man freewill pero nagkaroon ng pagsuway db dahil sa tukso ng serpent kaya napalayas cla sa paradise and this is the beginning that a man seperated frm God...kaya nagkaroon ng sumpa and tao that is why we are now leaving on this fleshly world kaya eto dumadanas tayo ng mga paghihirap hindi dahil sa kagustuhan ng God because we choose our will and not the will of God...am I right peacemaker?? But wait!!Jesus said...For God so loved the world;that he gave his only begotten Son,that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life.John 3:16 God Bless you peacemaker and more sharing with you...:tiphat:

[adechan]

A peaceful day to everyone:)

Maraming tao ang naniniwala na ang lahat na nangyayari sa mundo ay kagustuhan ng Dios kahit na nga raw ang pagkasala ni Adan at Eva. Dagdag pa nila na kung hindi raw nagkasala si Adan at Eva ay malamang na walang tao sa mundong ibabaw. Totoo kaya ang mga paniniwalang ito?

before Adam and Eve fall unto sin there are already possibilities that they already have lots and lots of children.

Everyone of us understand that Cain and Abel was the first children, but perhaps they are the first children after their fall.

We can notice at Genesis 4:17 that Cain found his wife at Nod, if Cain ang Abel was the first descendants, how come there were already people around other places.

Adam lived for 930 years, Set was the last son quoted at the Bible and he is 800 years old and still begat sons and daughters after Set.

We can imagine our life span today. A woman usually can bear child at least until her 40's to 50's, but chances are critical. Usually a typical woman of this generation bear children from 20's to late 30's, and they can begat more than 10 children.

How much more living a decade?

May God's wisdom "only" pours out in this discussion

[peacemaker]

Hello nice to meet you peacemaker :) isa rin akong mahilig pag-usapan pag It's about God scriptures but I'm not saying I'am well verse sa bible gusto ko lang din mag share sayo sa napag-aralan ko...you know God created all wonderful things on this earth especially man and a woman and God gives a man freewill pero nagkaroon ng pagsuway db dahil sa tukso ng serpent kaya napalayas cla sa paradise and this is the beginning that a man seperated frm God...kaya nagkaroon ng sumpa and tao that is why we are now leaving on this fleshly world kaya eto dumadanas tayo ng mga paghihirap hindi dahil sa kagustuhan ng God because we choose our will and not the will of God...am I right peacemaker?? But wait!!Jesus said...For God so loved the world;that he gave his only begotten Son,that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life.John 3:16 God Bless you peacemaker and more sharing with you...:tiphat:

Salamat sa reply mo stariray:)

So you are one of those people who believe that our present situation is not really the Will of God but the result of the failure of Adam and Eve in following God's commandment. How about other's opinion?

[fisher]

Our first Parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the divine probationary commandment.The Council of Trent teaches that Adam lost sanctity and justice by transgressing the Divine commandment.Since the punishment is proportionate to the guilt, the sin of Adam was clearly a serious sin.The biblical account of the fall through the sin of the First Parents is contained in Gn.2,17and 3.Since adam's sin is the basis of the dogma of Original Sin and Redemption the historical account as regards the essential facts may not be impugned.According to a decision of the Bible Commission in 1909,the literal historical sense is not to be doubted in regard to the following facts:
a)That the first man received a command from God to test his obedience.
b)That through the temptation of the devil who took the form of a serpent he transgressed the Divine Commandment.
c)That our First Parents were deprived of their original condition of innocence.
The sin of our First Parents was a sin of disobedience.By the disobedience of one man many were made sinners.The root of disobedience was pride.From it all perdition took its beginning.Pride is the beginning of all sin.The theory that Original Sin was a sexual sin(St.Clement of Alexandria,St.Ambros e)cannot be accepted.God's displeasure finally takes effect in the eternal rejection.Death and the evils associated with it follow from the loss of the gifts of integrity.God imposed suffering and death as a punishment for sin.The dominion of the devil is mentioned in Gn.3,15 and is explicitly taught in John12,31;14,30; 2Cor.4,4; Hebr.2,14; 2Peter 2,19.

[jhunex]

The question is how are we to understand the Genesis passage? And in a larger sense, how are we to understand the Bible? Are we to think that its writers meant every word to be taken as literal truth or are some things to be understood symbolically? Specifically is the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge to be understood literally or symbolically?
The Bible is the inspired word of God. It is the book in which the word of God among His people has been recorded. It is a storehouse of God's truth and wisdom, intended to enable us to find the true way of life, to construct God's Kingdom on earth and ultimately to gain our own salvation.
Nevertheless, the Bible must be properly understood. Whether its passages are accepted literally or symbolically, it is important to understand the message they are trying to convey. For example, in the Book of Jonah, the prophet is described as being swallowed by a great fish and living inside it. We now know that ancient Middle Eastern cultures often described a person who was in trouble as being "in the belly of a fish" much as today we might say he was "in a pickle". Thus to think of Jonah as being literally in the belly of a whale would be to miss the point. In fact he was in trouble because he was disobeying God.
Likewise, throughout the Bible spiritual truths are frequently presented through the use of metaphor or symbol. The parables of Jesus are an obvious case in point.

With regard to the story of the Fall, even those who claim to take the Bible literally often make an exception with the Adam and Eve narrative, both the ancient Jews and early Christians treated the narrative as pure allegory. Augustine, who was perhaps the most influential of all Christian theologians and a man who was particularly important in working out the traditional doctrine of original sin argrued that the Eden account should be taken both literally and symbolically, that is to say, taken partly as historic fact and partly as spiritual truth.
Whatever the sin of Adam and Eve was, it has affected the whole human race. Even today we suffer from its consequences. Therefore it must be an inherited sin. Could such a sin be caused by one's eating a fruit? Science proves that substances taken into the mouth do not have hereditary effects. Along the same lines, Matthew reports Jesus as saying:

"...not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." (Matt. 15:11)

One's eating will not affect the spiritual state of his children. It is impossible. Therefore, the fruit must be symbolic of something else.
Of course, for many people whether the fruit is symbolic or not is not the important issue. The very act of disobedience is the problem.
God was angry when man disobeyed Him, and therefore quickly cast him out of the Garden.
But let us think. Would God be interested in testing the obedience of His children to exist solely on the basis of obedience. It is rather a matter of love. Disobedience is no doubt one component of the Fall, but it is not its cause.
If the fruit is not literal, let us examine what it represents. The Book of Genesis states that the fruit grew on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet if the fruit is symbolic it cannot grow on a literal tree. The tree, then, must also be symbolic.

In the Garden there were two trees, the Tree of life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. There were also, of course, two persons, Adam and Eve.
The Tree of life is a rich symbol that appears throughout the Bible. In addition to the Genesis passage, it appears in the Book of Proverbs.

"...Hope defered makes the heart sick, but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life."(Prov.13:12)

it also appears in the last book of the Bible, Revelation.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates."(Rev. 22:14)

For the writers of these books the image of the Tree of life represented something highly desirable. It was the hope of people both of the Old Testament and the New Testament ages.
From reading Genesis, we can concluded the Tree of life also represented Adam's desire. Genesis3:24 states that God

"...drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the Tree of life."

Because of his sin, Adam was prevented from reaching what he wanted, the Tree of Life.

[NemoySpruce]

When I read the first chapter of Genesis, I feel that the author is talking about free will. The knowledge between good and evil is 'morality', the root component of free will. Without morality, man cannot have free will. Free will is God's greatest gift to us, and it is also the greatest curse. Eve eating the fruit means, man choosing to do evil, something that we all do on a daily basis, weather by mistake or weakness, we all do some sort of evil every day. This is part of being human, we do evil and we cause suffering, but we can also do good and alleviate suffering... eventually we, as a society, will have complete understanding of evil and good and hopefully we will choose to be good, thereby fulfilling God's gift.

[jhunex]

God's giving a free will to man was necessary and good, as traditional Judeo-Christian theology has asserted. Free will is the greatest gift God gave man.

If man were simply force to serve God, there would be no beauty or life in man and no joy or glory for God. It is most beautiful and precious when man serves God voluntarily and loves Him wholeheartedly, in free will. The flower turns its face to the sun because there is no alternative open to it; man's free will gives his existence a special dimension. From this, man is supreme in all creation, validating his lordship.

Some believe that Adam and Eve fell because they had free will. Of course, their free will made it possible for them to fall. If they had fallen because of their free will, however, there would always be the danger of falling, even after they had become perfect. Insecurity would exist even in the Kingdom of God, where man is to have complete freedom. Such insecurity would then exist forever, and the promised attainment of perfection would be impossible.

Though free will did not cause the Fall, Adam and Eve lost their freedom because of their sin. The reason is that freedom exists only within the confines of God's law. Outside of God's law, there is no freedom.(2Corithians 3:17)
To understand this apparent paradox, think of the freedom which we enjoy our society. This freedom exists only so long as we abide by the laws of the nation.

To take a simple example, if one chooses to run a red light, he may lose the privilege of driving. Similarly, our freedom of motion exists within the law of gravity. If we try to walk out of a 5th story window, we will quickly find the limits of our freedom! When such limits are ignored and freedom is misused, disharmony, chaos & destruction result.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the illicit love of Lucifer shattered God's law & destroyed the freedom of man. Because of this, man has lived under a Satanic bondage.
Spiritually man does not have complete freedom to do what is right & good in God's eyes. He is inextricably enmeshed in voluntary & involuntary captivity; this has been brilliantly analyzed by such thinkers, as Augustine, John Calvin & Reinhold Neibuhr as well as portrayed through our greatest novelist.

On this point the apostle Paul lamented: "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want but I do the very thing that I hate....Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?(Rom. 7:14-15,25)
Hence it is necessary man to restore his original liberty before he can build the Kingdom of God in his midst; though man may have free actions, those actions may not be the result of inner freedom. One of the signs, it is felt of growth in the spiritual life of mankind is that in present times there is a universal demand for liberation on every level, whether it be racial, national or theological terms. In history, free will from a religious perspective is best illustrated in the lives of those who chose God and the spiritual liberty at great risk or even at the cost of their lives, for example, Joan of Arc, Martin Luther King, Cardinal Mindszenty and numerous Christian martyrs.

[jhunex]

Let us examine the actual nature of Adam's and Eve's sin. We are told that originally:
"the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed."(Gen. 2:25)
After eating the forbidden fruit, however, they felt and acted differently:
"Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons."(Gen. 3:7)

Obviously during the period between these two verses, something happened. After commiting sin, our ancestors suddenly felt shame for their nakedness. This shame was not related indiscriminately to all areas of their bodies, but specifically to their genital areas. They didn't cover their faces or feet; they covered their sexual parts.
One's natural impulse is to hide evidence of wrongdoing. For example if a little child is caught in the act of stealing a cookie, his first reaction is to put one hand over his mouth and the cookie behind his back. In so doing he wants to cover up his wrong. Likewise, a thief or murderer will conceal any evidence which might lead to his detection.

If the sin of Adam and Eve involved eating fruit, they would have covered their mouths or their hands, the two parts of their bodies directly involved in the crime. This was not the case, however; Adam and Eve covered only the lower parts of their bodies.
"...and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons."(Gen. 3:17)
This indicates their transgression involved the concealed portion of their bodies, their sexual parts. From this we may conclude the crime of our first parents was one of fornication.

Evidence of a Sexual Sin
That the Fall was sexual in nature is suggested by other evidence also. For example, in referring to their sexual actions, the Hebrews(as well as men of other cultures) commonly spoke of eating or picking a fruit. In the Bible and elsewhere "To know " a woman means to have sexual relations with her. In the fourth chapter of Genesis, for example, it is said of Cain that "he knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch"(Gen. 4:17) and of Adam that he "knew his wife again, and she bore a son."(Gen. 4:25)
Of course such an interpretation is not without support among other Jewish and Christian scholars. Cardinal Jean Danielou, an expert on early Christian literature and member of the French Academy, asserts that"a majority of critics underline that fact that the sin has a sexual character."

Nor should we ignore the unusual merit attributed to the practice of religious celibacy. Not only did the apostle Paul encourage chastity but Jesus pointed out that there are some who are eunuchs for the sake of the KIngdom of Heaven. Indeed a commitment to chastity, along with commitments to poverty and obedience, is an essential part of one's becoming a monk, nun or priest within the Roman Catholic Church. Similarly, some branches of Hinduism and Buddhism have taught that for the true seeker the highest path involved sexual abstinence.
Such practices imply that marriage as we know it does not have the complete sanction of God but is a compromise for those who are unable to realize such a path. Such religions hint that there is something fundamentally problematic with sexual desire as commonly experienced.

Even the rite of circumcision can be related to the Fall of Man if one sees its deepest meaning. According to Genesis, Abraham instituted this ceremonial act as a visible sign of the covenant binding the children of Israel to their God. The most obvious significance of the act is to distinguish Hebrews from others. Furthermore, however, something about sex is felt to alienate man from God. Cutting of the male child's foreskin indicates the Hebrew's determination to cut off many attachments he has which seperate him from God.
Circumcision represents symbolic restitution for the original sin of Adam and Eve.

[NemoySpruce]

hello jhunex, interesting post. Can you please clarify if I have understood correctly. Sex between adam and eve is a sin? how else would they go forth and multiply? i got confused there, i hope you can help me out.

[jhunex]

Hi! NemoySpruce

It' a good question, so I recommend to you to please watch and study this video lecture about The Human Fall (http://www.familyfed.org/usa/video2003/20030326_2.wmv), you can also find the other video lecture on the thread title 'A New Teaching' in the second page of this Religion & Inspiration. And if you have anymore question or clarification please free to post it & I'll be glad to read it.:)

To answer your question here is a quick response:
God told Adam & Eve to multiply(Gen. 1:28). But God states that there is a prerequisite for the multiplication and that is to become "fruitful". The meaning of "fruitful" is that they should first individually perfect their relationship with God before they were to consummate their marriage. They were not yet spiritually mature and therefore were not yet qualified to begin the lineage of God. The Tree of Life is the symbol of the perfection they were seeking(Prov. 11:30 "...the fruit of the righteous is a tree of life"). That ideal has been held back from man since the beginning, but will be returned to us at the Second Coming(see Rev. 22:14). Secondly, the relationship between Adam & Eve that did take also place was a result of the temptation of Lucifer. The relationship between Adam and Eve, passed the nature of sin, Eve had received from Lucifer, to her husband Adam. Together, as fallen parents, they passed the sin on to their children. This was not what God wanted.
Adam and Eve should have first become perfect(fruitful) and on that foundation, then multiplied. Had they obeyed this then the children of Adam and all their descendants would be without the nature of sin and death that riled since the fall.

[NemoySpruce]

Good day jhunex, i clicked on the link for the video, and my browser crashed. But I think I understand what you are saying. Adam and Eve had sex before they were mature enough in the knowledge of God... is that right? because of this, the entire human race was cursed, and we can only remove the curse when Jesus comes back. I am afraid I am not knowledgable enough to grasp this concept correctly. It doesnt seem rational to me. Am I supposed to just accept it as truth? without thinking? maybe I need to study more scripture..

[greatbarrier]

The question is how are we to understand the Genesis passage? And in a larger sense, how are we to understand the Bible? Are we to think that its writers meant every word to be taken as literal truth or are some things to be understood symbolically? Specifically is the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge to be understood literally or symbolically?
The Bible is the inspired word of God. It is the book in which the word of God among His people has been recorded. It is a storehouse of God's truth and wisdom, intended to enable us to find the true way of life, to construct God's Kingdom on earth and ultimately to gain our own salvation.
Nevertheless, the Bible must be properly understood. Whether its passages are accepted literally or symbolically, it is important to understand the message they are trying to convey. For example, in the Book of Jonah, the prophet is described as being swallowed by a great fish and living inside it. We now know that ancient Middle Eastern cultures often described a person who was in trouble as being "in the belly of a fish" much as today we might say he was "in a pickle". Thus to think of Jonah as being literally in the belly of a whale would be to miss the point. In fact he was in trouble because he was disobeying God.
Likewise, throughout the Bible spiritual truths are frequently presented through the use of metaphor or symbol. The parables of Jesus are an obvious case in point.

With regard to the story of the Fall, even those who claim to take the Bible literally often make an exception with the Adam and Eve narrative, both the ancient Jews and early Christians treated the narrative as pure allegory. Augustine, who was perhaps the most influential of all Christian theologians and a man who was particularly important in working out the traditional doctrine of original sin argrued that the Eden account should be taken both literally and symbolically, that is to say, taken partly as historic fact and partly as spiritual truth.
Whatever the sin of Adam and Eve was, it has affected the whole human race. Even today we suffer from its consequences. Therefore it must be an inherited sin. Could such a sin be caused by one's eating a fruit? Science proves that substances taken into the mouth do not have hereditary effects. Along the same lines, Matthew reports Jesus as saying:

"...not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." (Matt. 15:11)

One's eating will not affect the spiritual state of his children. It is impossible. Therefore, the fruit must be symbolic of something else.
Of course, for many people whether the fruit is symbolic or not is not the important issue. The very act of disobedience is the problem.
God was angry when man disobeyed Him, and therefore quickly cast him out of the Garden.
But let us think. Would God be interested in testing the obedience of His children to exist solely on the basis of obedience. It is rather a matter of love. Disobedience is no doubt one component of the Fall, but it is not its cause.
If the fruit is not literal, let us examine what it represents. The Book of Genesis states that the fruit grew on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet if the fruit is symbolic it cannot grow on a literal tree. The tree, then, must also be symbolic.

In the Garden there were two trees, the Tree of life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. There were also, of course, two persons, Adam and Eve.
The Tree of life is a rich symbol that appears throughout the Bible. In addition to the Genesis passage, it appears in the Book of Proverbs.

"...Hope defered makes the heart sick, but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life."(Prov.13:12)

it also appears in the last book of the Bible, Revelation.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates."(Rev. 22:14)

For the writers of these books the image of the Tree of life represented something highly desirable. It was the hope of people both of the Old Testament and the New Testament ages.
From reading Genesis, we can concluded the Tree of life also represented Adam's desire. Genesis3:24 states that God

"...drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the Tree of life."

Because of his sin, Adam was prevented from reaching what he wanted, the Tree of Life.
-----------------------------

very nice post jhunex!!!:dowave: ano grade mo sa theology? :D just kidding!

yeah, theologists say (you can confirm this with any catholic priest that you know) that genesis passage were written in metaphor....my religion teacher back in high school said that when the old testament was compiled...the genesis was included so as to have a "beginning"...di ba "genesis" means "the beginning"....& para meron explanation how the human race starts....

you're right! the bible passage, no matter how it was written, should be understood in godly perspective! note that it is the framework of christian faith!

but medyo mag-devil's advocate ako ha....how would you explain the relics of the tabon man, the peking man...were they also considered as descendants of adam & eve?

there were a lot of events in the past history of the earth which are unexplainable!

but then again...everything will still boil down to the intensity of our faith in God!

[jhunex]

Good day jhunex, i clicked on the link for the video, and my browser crashed. But I think I understand what you are saying. Adam and Eve had sex before they were mature enough in the knowledge of God... is that right? because of this, the entire human race was cursed, and we can only remove the curse when Jesus comes back. I am afraid I am not knowledgable enough to grasp this concept correctly. It doesnt seem rational to me. Am I supposed to just accept it as truth? without thinking? maybe I need to study more scripture..

Salamat sa iyong responde.

Naiintindihan kita, ganyan din ako nang una kong malaman ang bagong turo na ito. Satotoo lang bago ko nalaman ang turong ito hindi ako masyadong nagbabasa nang Bibliya. Sa katagalan naging interesado na rin ako. Kung OK lang sa iyo at kung may "extra time" ka "I suggest to study it again" doon sa "thread A New Teaching" meron doon "link for text"...siguro mas maiintindihan mo kong babasahin mo at kung uumpisahan mo sa "chapter 1(The Principle of Creation)" kasi itong "The Human Fall chapter 2" na.

Hope to read your post next time:)

[jhunex]

-----------------------------

very nice post jhunex!!!:dowave: ano grade mo sa theology? :D just kidding!
Understandable!!!... Actually I never study theology....undergra duate pa nga eh!! :doh:


but medyo mag-devil's advocate ako ha....how would you explain the relics of the tabon man, the peking man...were they also considered as descendants of adam & eve?

I think the book of Genesis tells us about God's plan from the beginning(as you said), His original plan for us and His suffering heart. About the relics of the tabon man, the peking man...I think it is the responsibility of science to explain that for us.

there were a lot of events in the past history of the earth which are unexplainable!

but then again...everything will still boil down to the intensity of our faith in God!

I recommend to study on Resurrection, you can find it on a thread tittle "A New Teaching" here on this forum 2nd page.
Hebrews 11:39-40 says,"And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.":)

[mOtt_erU]

hi :)
Biblicaly speaking sinner talaga si Adam & Eve,,.

[infinite_trial]

i'm just wonderin...if God planned everythin, He knew that Adam and Eve would disobey Him. It's written in the Bible that Jesus, the son of God would come to save humanity from the original sin. Now...

- does this mean that He purposedly told Adam and Eve not to touch the forbidden fruit to provoke their curiosity?

- is it fair for God to tell them that they have sinned when logically Adam and Eve had no sense of morality when they ate the fruit? in fact, they didn't noticed that they were naked until they ate the forbidden fruit.

- is it possible that the serpent, was not the devil or Satan at all, and it could be God Himself? where did the devil come from? did God created him/it too? if God did, was it before he created a man or after? and why did he/it know that Eve will not die upon eatin the fruit?

- if God knew everythin that would happen, why He had not seen Adam hidin from Him after they ate the fruit?

- if Eve had not eaten the fruit, what would have happened with the original sin? would Jesus Christ still be born to save us? would He be any different from us if it didn't happen?

- if the previous question's impossible to happen since everythin was planned...then can we say that there is no free will? that whatever we choose wouldn't matter cuz the result would be the same.

[adechan]

Hi there,

I don't know how to answer you with a short one:D .

But one thing I want to let you know, those questions came to me as well, and really didn't know if I will still need to believe on God.

But along the way, I made my way back. Understanding and wisdom will just come when you know more and study the scriptures.

Many great teachers and advisers may give you answers and teachings.

Pero mas maganda find it yourself, with an honest and humble quest to God if He is true, and let you know Him if He is true.

God bless you:)

[infinite_trial]

Hi there,

I don't know how to answer you with a short one:D .

But one thing I want to let you know, those questions came to me as well, and really didn't know if I will still need to believe on God.

But along the way, I made my way back. Understanding and wisdom will just come when you know more and study the scriptures.

Many great teachers and advisers may give you answers and teachings.

Pero mas maganda find it yourself, with an honest and humble quest to God if He is true, and let you know Him if He is true.

God bless you:)

i just find it hard to fully believe in Him if the thing that serves as His evidence is interpreted differently. and He's also described differently from the old to the new testament. the God that i picture from the old testament punishes people in an instant while the God that is pictured in the new one is a loving God.

i'm also amazed. a lot of people are openin up new threads in the religion section. they post lines and verses that are copied from the Bible or elsewhere but they didn't even bother to answer mah questions. got me thinkin if their faith are only based on those words bein feed to them and they cannot back up their faith without lookin at the Bible.

[alexb]

i'm just wonderin...if God planned everythin, He knew that Adam and Eve would disobey Him. It's written in the Bible that Jesus, the son of God would come to save humanity from the original sin. Now...


- does this mean that He purposedly told Adam and Eve not to touch the forbidden fruit to provoke their curiosity? -No, before the fall siguradong nauusap sila ng harapan (ng Dios), siguradong naipaliwanag sa kanila yan, kaya lang mali pinili nila.

- is it fair for God to tell them that they have sinned when logically Adam and Eve had no sense of morality when they ate the fruit? in fact, they didn't noticed that they were naked until they ate the forbidden fruit. -Sensya na di ko masyado nakuha ibig mong sabihin. Do they really have no sense of morality? What do you mean when you say morality? Does it mean that they were originally immoral since walang morality?

- is it possible that the serpent, was not the devil or Satan at all, and it could be God Himself? where did the devil come from? did God created him/it too? if God did, was it before he created a man or after? and why did he/it know that Eve will not die upon eatin the fruit? -The bible says its the devil. God didnt create the devil (see Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14). Before or after man...the bible is silent about that. The devil lied ng sabihin niyang di mamamatay sila.

- if God knew everythin that would happen, why He had not seen Adam hidin from Him after they ate the fruit? -Alam Niya yun, parang earthly parents din, kapag nagkamali ang anak di dinideretso ng magulang, pinaiikot dahil gusto niya na umamin ang anak ng kusa.

- if Eve had not eaten the fruit, what would have happened with the original sin? would Jesus Christ still be born to save us? would He be any different from us if it didn't happen? -Kung di kinain edi walang kasalanan at di na kailangan magkatawan-tao si Hesus.

- if the previous question's impossible to happen since everythin was planned...then can we say that there is no free will? that whatever we choose wouldn't matter cuz the result would be the same. -May free will, freely Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

[infinite_trial]

-No, before the fall siguradong nauusap sila ng harapan (ng Dios), siguradong naipaliwanag sa kanila yan, kaya lang mali pinili nila.


okay i think i should rephrase mah question. Why did God tell Adam and Eve that they would die upon eatin the fruit when in fact they will not? Can't we call it deception?

-Sensya na di ko masyado nakuha ibig mong sabihin. Do they really have no sense of morality? What do you mean when you say morality? Does it mean that they were originally immoral since walang morality?


what i mean is they don't know what is right or wrong. they only knew that they had done sumthin wrong after eatin the fruit. that's why adam hid from God after that.

-The bible says its the devil. God didnt create the devil (see Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14). Before or after man...the bible is silent about that. The devil lied ng sabihin niyang di mamamatay sila.


can you give me the exact verse where it says that the snake was the devil cuz i am no Bible junkie. and why did you say that the snake lied? so God did not lie when he told em that they will die when they eat the fruit? adam and eve surely didn't die...


-Alam Niya yun, parang earthly parents din, kapag nagkamali ang anak di dinideretso ng magulang, pinaiikot dahil gusto niya na umamin ang anak ng kusa.


okay if you say so

-Kung di kinain edi walang kasalanan at di na kailangan magkatawan-tao si Hesus.


exactly! so God purposedly deceived em to eat the fruit to curse humanity. afterall, what worth would Jesus serve if there's no original sin? it would be such a borin world for God.


-May free will, freely Adam and Eve disobeyed God.
so what happens with God's plans?

[Stacie Fil]

i'm just wonderin...if God planned everythin, He knew that Adam and Eve would disobey Him. It's written in the Bible that Jesus, the son of God would come to save humanity from the original sin. Now...

- does this mean that He purposedly told Adam and Eve not to touch the forbidden fruit to provoke their curiosity?
No, it was a clear preventive warning. A real parent (of Love)would never leave a kentucky or jollibee on top of dining table reachable by their babies only to tease them. They know their children limitations and test is not neccessary, specially a cruel one that would lead them to their death. "Not even to touch" were the words used by the serpent to distort the original guidance commanded by God.

- is it fair for God to tell them that they have sinned when logically Adam and Eve had no sense of morality when they ate the fruit? in fact, they didn't noticed that they were naked until they ate the forbidden fruit.

They, A & Eve, realised themselve, what they commited was sin and they were naked, after they ate of the fruit o the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

- is it possible that the serpent, was not the devil or Satan at all, and it could be God Himself? where did the devil come from? did God created him/it too? if God did, was it before he created a man or after? and why did he/it know that Eve will not die upon eatin the fruit?

The serpent is satan, meaning enemy of God. Haba nito tol, kulang ang page na aabalahin natin. Daanin na lang natin sa kwentuhan/storya over a cup of coffee pag nag meet tayo. Sagot mo coffee ha! He, he,he,he! Sagot ko kwento,nye,he,he,he. :D


- if God knew everythin that would happen, why He had not seen Adam hidin from Him after they ate the fruit?
Calling or missing A/E, means they lost conection to God.


- if Eve had not eaten the fruit, what would have happened with the original sin? would Jesus Christ still be born to save us? would He be any different from us if it didn't happen?
Will you send a doctor if no one is sick?
Visit/ check up? He,he,he, pilosopo!:p

- if the previous question's impossible to happen since everythin was planned...then can we say that there is no free will? that whatever we choose wouldn't matter cuz the result would be the same.

There is free will. Set mo mini EB natin, I shall decern if I'll go or not. :D Hindi naman siguro Indian Lolo mo ano? Jok lang.


:)

[alexb]

can you give me the exact verse where it says that the snake was the devil cuz i am no Bible junkie. --Infinite_trial

Sensya na, but I suggest that you read the bible (not Divine Principles) Genesis chapters 1-3, Ezekiel 28:12-17, Isaiah 14:12-14.

Truth 1 - the bible interprets itself, truth 2 - you will understand what you are studying if you will only ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.

Basahin mo rin ang mga bible commentaries, kung wala ka nun meron namang online. Basahin mo commentaries on Gen 1-3, Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14. Sigurado marami sa tanong mo masasagot.

Exact verse...I suggest din na i-cross reference mo ang word na "serpent" sa online commentaries.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. --Revelation 12:9

[alexb]

exactly! so God purposedly deceived em to eat the fruit to curse humanity. afterall, what worth would Jesus serve if there's no original sin? it would be such a borin world for God.


Saan mo nakuha yang turo na iyan? God is a deceiver kamo? Can you prove it?

[DaVinci]

Nice thread :)

Here's my take on this topic;

God is absolutely good thus it is not in His nature to do evil.

Human are issued with free will along with their pancreas, liver, intestines, etc. I think it is apparent that Adam and Eve used their free will from the incident that happened in the paradise since they have the choices of eating or not to eat the red or green apple, whatever.:) To spice up the very nature of free will there was of course, an outside influence before a choice must be made and in this particular case, it was the serpent. But free will was not the only variable included in the whole equation of the Fall of Man and other bible issues, there was also Divine Intervention. Right, the fact that God warned Adam and Eve before the incident was a clear sign of Divince Intervention. God has his own Will but human in most of the time due to its free will is not allowing God to intervene with their personal lives, thus the voice of God seems just an echoe in the dark.

I am not a religious guy, but this is just what i can share on this topic. :)

[infinite_trial]

[/b]

There is free will. Set mo mini EB natin, I shall decern if I'll go or not. :D Hindi naman siguro Indian Lolo mo ano? Jok lang.


:)

i'll get back on your answers i'll just reply to the short ones first.

[Dax]

Gusto ko lang i-share itong laro: Battlefield God

http://www.philosophersnet. com/games/god.htm

Ito ang sabi sa website:
In this activity you’ll be asked a series of 17 questions about God and religion. In each case, apart from Question 1, you need to answer True or False. The aim of the activity is not to judge whether these answers are correct or not. Our battleground is that of rational consistency. This means to get across without taking any hits, you’ll need to answer in a way which is rationally consistent. What this means is you need to avoid choosing answers which contradict each other. If you answer in a way which is rationally consistent but which has strange or unpalatable implications, you’ll be forced to bite a bullet.Basahing mabuti ang criteria at FAQs bago simulan. Sa palagay mo ba kaya mong tapusin ang laro na di tinatamaan ng bala? Well give it a try! :D

[infinite_trial]

Saan mo nakuha yang turo na iyan? God is a deceiver kamo? Can you prove it?

any logical person would've thought of that. i don't practice mah religion ever since these questions in mah mind arised.

i'm goin to reiterate mah previous post...

i said that adam and eve were innocent before they ate the fruit, thus they have no sense of what is right or wrong. understandably, eve was fooled by the snake into eatin the fruit cuz it said that she won't die of poison opposed to what god had told em.

parang ganito yan, for example you have a 3 year old kid. you prepared some cookies for your visitors then you tell your kid not to touch it nor eat it cuz if he does, he would die. it's the only reason that you could think of givin your kid cuz you know that he would not dare touch it if it leads to death.

but then you didn't realize that there are other people that could influence your child. he sees another person or child eats the cookie. isipin nya, di naman pala nakakamatay e, matry ko nga. then you scold your child upon knowin he touched the cookies you made. given that he disobeyed you, but you still deceived him into believin that a cookie is poisonous.

could we blame it on wrong parentin or blame it on the child alone?

[DaVinci]

any logical person would've thought of that. i don't practice mah religion ever since these questions in mah mind arised.

i'm goin to reiterate mah previous post...

i said that adam and eve were innocent before they ate the fruit, thus they have no sense of what is right or wrong. understandably, eve was fooled by the snake into eatin the fruit cuz it said that she won't die of poison opposed to what god had told em.

parang ganito yan, for example you have a 3 year old kid. you prepared some cookies for your visitors then you tell your kid not to touch it nor eat it cuz if he does, he would die. it's the only reason that you could think of givin your kid cuz you know that he would not dare touch it if it leads to death.

but then you didn't realize that there are other people that could influence your child. he sees another person or child eats the cookie. isipin nya, di naman pala nakakamatay e, matry ko nga. then you scold your child upon knowin he touched the cookies you made. given that he disobeyed you, but you still deceived him into believin that a cookie is poisonous.

could we blame it on wrong parentin or blame it on the child alone?

Hi IT, I can't help but reply to your post regarding God as Deceiver...

Well, for your first statement that Adam and Eve were innocent and that they have no concept of right or wrong is not precisely right, I think, 'coz before they ate the forbidden fruit they were warned by God thus the concept of eating the fruit was wrong and therefore not eating the fruit was right.

The second one regarding Death as a ploy of God, well, do you think that your Concept of Death is similar to what God told Adam and Eve? From you're previous posts, I presume that the way you define death is just a physical death meaning our biological body approaching equillibrium with its environment. Well, is it possible that death means becoming mortal or living out of Gods grace is also a form of death? I don't really know what's the theological context of the Death mentioned in this narrative but I think it's not just plane biological death... thus God was Not a Deceiver and He really put the the curse of Death to all mankind.

Just an opinion from a non-religious guy.:)

[infinite_trial]

Gusto ko lang i-share itong laro: Battlefield God

http://www.philosophersnet. com/games/god.htm

Ito ang sabi sa website:
Basahing mabuti ang criteria at FAQs bago simulan. Sa palagay mo ba kaya mong tapusin ang laro na di tinatamaan ng bala? Well give it a try! :D

sorry been very busy earlier, but i've taken the test now and got 0 direct hits and 2 bitten bullets.

[infinite_trial]

Well, is it possible that death means becoming mortal or living out of Gods grace is also a form of death? I don't really know what's the theological context of the Death mentioned in this narrative but I think it's not just plane biological death... thus God was Not a Deceiver and He really put the the curse of Death to all mankind.

Just an opinion from a non-religious guy.:)

well..don't ask me what's the biblical interpretation of it. i also dunno. the reason why i'm askin these questions because i'm confused and i'm goin through a lot of self-exploration. now, mah questions are also based on their answers mixed wit mah own theories. i'm not sayin i'm right. i'm explorin the possibilities.

if you say that death is interpreted not as physical death, why would a parent give his child an encrypted message and punish him at the end?

and to make this discussion more interesting, what about the story of job? why did god allowed satan to test job's faith to the point of lettin the devil kill his servants and kids? di ba parang nagpustahan na din sila? if everythin is planned, then god surely knows that he will win.

[infinite_trial]

No, it was a clear preventive warning. A real parent (of Love)would never leave a kentucky or jollibee on top of dining table reachable by their babies only to tease them. They know their children limitations and test is not neccessary, specially a cruel one that would lead them to their death. "Not even to touch" were the words used by the serpent to distort the original guidance commanded by God.


please refer to mah question about job's test of faith


They, A & Eve, realised themselve, what they commited was sin and they were naked, after they ate of the fruit o the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


that was after, i said they before/upon eatin the fruit, they have no sense of morality


The serpent is satan, meaning enemy of God. Haba nito tol, kulang ang page na aabalahin natin. Daanin na lang natin sa kwentuhan/storya over a cup of coffee pag nag meet tayo. Sagot mo coffee ha! He, he,he,he! Sagot ko kwento,nye,he,he,he.


hehe sure, when?


Calling or missing A/E, means they lost conection to God.

is this another of bible's metaphors?


Will you send a doctor if no one is sick?
Visit/ check up? He,he,he, pilosopo!


again, if everythin is planned...then we can say that god made this whole melodrama bout the original sin, to send jesus to earth and save our supposed sins. e di magmumukha nga namang tanga si jesus kung pupunta sa earth ng may mission wala naman isasave.


There is free will. Set mo mini EB natin, I shall decern if I'll go or not. :D Hindi naman siguro Indian Lolo mo ano? Jok lang.


:)

and proof of free will is?

[alexb]

any logical person would've thought of that. i don't practice mah religion ever since these questions in mah mind arised.

i'm goin to reiterate mah previous post...

i said that adam and eve were innocent before they ate the fruit, thus they have no sense of what is right or wrong. understandably, eve was fooled by the snake into eatin the fruit cuz it said that she won't die of poison opposed to what god had told em.

parang ganito yan, for example you have a 3 year old kid. you prepared some cookies for your visitors then you tell your kid not to touch it nor eat it cuz if he does, he would die. it's the only reason that you could think of givin your kid cuz you know that he would not dare touch it if it leads to death.

but then you didn't realize that there are other people that could influence your child. he sees another person or child eats the cookie. isipin nya, di naman pala nakakamatay e, matry ko nga. then you scold your child upon knowin he touched the cookies you made. given that he disobeyed you, but you still deceived him into believin that a cookie is poisonous.

could we blame it on wrong parentin or blame it on the child alone?


Hehehe, like I said, read. Yang mga tanong mo naitanong ko na rin yan at nasagot nung nagbasa ako. Dont totally rely sa forum, eh paano kung niloloko ka lang pala namin?

Saka yung kurokuro natin ay wala sa kalingkingan ng pagiisip ng Dios, nasusulat iyan.

[infinite_trial]

Hehehe, like I said, read. Yang mga tanong mo naitanong ko na rin yan at nasagot nung nagbasa ako. Dont totally rely sa forum, eh paano kung niloloko ka lang pala namin?

Saka yung kurokuro natin ay wala sa kalingkingan ng pagiisip ng Dios, nasusulat iyan.

e paano kung niloloko lang pala ako ng bible? what if what we/you believe in is not true at all?

are you givin up? why are you givin me such answer?

read what? why aren't you answerin directly mah questions. if you are a christian as you claim to be, wit your faith, wit your evidence...the bible, you can prove all that. and all i'm usin is your own words against you.

[alexb]

e paano kung niloloko lang pala ako ng bible? what if what we/you believe in is not true at all?

are you givin up? why are you givin me such answer?

read what? why aren't you answerin directly mah questions. if you are a christian as you claim to be, wit your faith, wit your evidence...the bible, you can prove all that. and all i'm usin is your own words against you.

What words against me?

Read the bible and commentaries. Kung binasa mo maraming nasagot na sana.

Niloloko ng bible?

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. --Heb 11:6

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? --Romans 11:34

Di ako nakikipag-away ha.

[infinite_trial]

What words against me?

Read the bible and commentaries. Kung binasa mo maraming nasagot na sana.


di rin ako nakikipag-away. what i want is an explanation. i'm askin questions and without knowledge of the bible of course, i will ask how will you interpret those. thus i'm usin your own explanations to ask further questions bout the things i'm not certain of.


Niloloko ng bible?

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. --Heb 11:6

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? --Romans 11:34

Di ako nakikipag-away ha.

could you answer mah questions directly? those are just bible passages. it doesn't answer mah previous questions. plus your reference has a lot of contradictions.

[alexb]

could you answer mah questions directly? those are just bible passages. it doesn't answer mah previous questions. plus your reference has a lot of contradictions.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. --Heb 11:6

Kaya ko pinababasa sa iyo ang bible ng lumakas ang faith mo sa salita Niya. Kasi kung wala ito its a waste of time di ba?

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?[/I] --Romans 11:34

Ang tendency ng tao ay magrely sa sarili niyang pang-unawa o logic. Tulad na lang ng iba dahil sa di kayang unawain ang pagiisip ng Dios pinaniwalaan na lang na walang Dios (aetheism). Minsan napagbibintangan na 'deceiver' pa Siya.

Check out this bible commentary: http://www.blueletterbible. org/tmp_dir/c/1157722676-9500.html

Sana makatulong yan kahit konti

Good night:)

[infinite_trial]

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. --Heb 11:6

Kaya ko pinababasa sa iyo ang bible ng lumakas ang faith mo sa salita Niya. Kasi kung wala ito its a waste of time di ba?

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?[/i] --Romans 11:34

Ang tendency ng tao ay magrely sa sarili niyang pang-unawa o logic. Tulad na lang ng iba dahil sa di kayang unawain ang pagiisip ng Dios pinaniwalaan na lang na walang Dios (aetheism). Minsan napagbibintangan na 'deceiver' pa Siya.

Check out this bible commentary: http://www.blueletterbible. org/tmp_dir/c/1157722676-9500.html

Sana makatulong yan kahit konti

Good night:)


im not yet an atheist. im agnostic.

still if you have the time please explain the story of job. i would definitely love to study bout the bible now.

pareho din pala kayo ng reasoning ni peacemaker.

[DaVinci]

well..don't ask me what's the biblical interpretation of it. i also dunno. the reason why i'm askin these questions because i'm confused and i'm goin through a lot of self-exploration. now, mah questions are also based on their answers mixed wit mah own theories. i'm not sayin i'm right. i'm explorin the possibilities.

those were interrogatory in form but they were more suggestive of the possible options aside from your definition of death...i think it would be wise if you consider those options since you're in the self-exploration mode which requires open-mindedness...:)

[/quote] if you say that death is interpreted not as physical death, why would a parent give his child an encrypted message and punish him at the end?[/quote]

can't understand this one, the question is not consistent with the death thing...anyway,
i dunno what the bible has to say on this but here's my position; well, i think we should look at things in different ways like did God really intended to punish the child or He gave this "encrypted message" as a warning to prevent such consequence??? I guess, it would be better if we look at things in various perspectives and decide which among them is more constructive...:)


[/quote] and to make this discussion more interesting, what about the story of job? why did god allowed satan to test job's faith to the point of lettin the devil kill his servants and kids? di ba parang nagpustahan na din sila? if everythin is planned, then god surely knows that he will win.[/quote]

i dunno about Job's story but the way you presented it, it's like God is up to another dirty tricks, huh? again, am not a bible-guy but here's my input...God with all of His goodness has no capacity to change human from what He wanted us to be since we have our free will....so what God can do is to influence us by giving us choices...if we fail to choose the right one, we (most of us) have the tendency to blame something/someone (probably due to pride)...but if we are mature enough, we should be able to see that free will is tag with moral responsibilty thus taking full responsibolity of whatever the consequences of what we've chosen.

IT, just an unsolicited advice, I think it is better to spend more time thinking of the purpose rather than focusing on the consequences....:)

[infinite_trial]

those were interrogatory in form but they were more suggestive of the possible options aside from your definition of death...i think it would be wise if you consider those options since you're in the self-exploration mode which requires open-mindedness...:)

if you say that death is interpreted not as physical death, why would a parent give his child an encrypted message and punish him at the end?

can't understand this one, the question is not consistent with the death thing...anyway,
i dunno what the bible has to say on this but here's my position; well, i think we should look at things in different ways like did God really intended to punish the child or He gave this "encrypted message" as a warning to prevent such consequence??? I guess, it would be better if we look at things in various perspectives and decide which among them is more constructive...:)


and to make this discussion more interesting, what about the story of job? why did god allowed satan to test job's faith to the point of lettin the devil kill his servants and kids? di ba parang nagpustahan na din sila? if everythin is planned, then god surely knows that he will win.

i dunno about Job's story but the way you presented it, it's like God is up to another dirty tricks, huh? again, am not a bible-guy but here's my input...God with all of His goodness has no capacity to change human from what He wanted us to be since we have our free will....so what God can do is to influence us by giving us choices...if we fail to choose the right one, we (most of us) have the tendency to blame something/someone (probably due to pride)...but if we are mature enough, we should be able to see that free will is tag with moral responsibilty thus taking full responsibolity of whatever the consequences of what we've chosen.

IT, just an unsolicited advice, I think it is better to spend more time thinking of the purpose rather than focusing on the consequences....:)

i've already spent a lot time of thinkin, that is why i am collatin views from Christians (bible experts or not). i stopped practisin mah religion because it would be hypocrite of me to continue so if i have doubts in mah mind.

when i was a child i was told to stop askin questions, just believe whether you like it or not. in mah own opinion, anyone can be happy wit or without religion. we all yearn for peace, harmony and love. i believe i can find this even without religion.

i'm still searchin for answers. like i said in one of mah posts in this section, i don't want to believe that there is no god...but the more questions i ask, the more i believe that may be there is no god.

about the story of job...god made a bet wit the devil that job won't lose his faith even if the devil put him on a test. god agreed to let the devil do anythin except for takin his life. job had all the misfortunes includin havin his kids killed.

if you're a lovin parent, would you place a bet to prove his love for you? Stacie Fil said test is not necessary but there were a lot of stories in the bible where god put someone's faith into test. there's abraham. the story of moses...hmnnn...if i also remember it right, god killed all the egyptians' first son.

if god is a lovin parent, why let us experience those things?

some say that god planned everythin
some say that we also have free will
if god had planned everythin then even if we are presented with choices we can assume that free will is just an illusion
if free will exists and we can change our fate, then god might not be almighty
that he is imperfect
that he is not what we pictured him to be

mah opinions may be wicked for some christians...but you can't deny that these have/had all of you thinkin...

i appreciate the inputs. i'm still not through wit self-discovery.

if there's anyone here willin to answer mah other question...

did god create evil?

[alexb]

im not yet an atheist. im agnostic.

still if you have the time please explain the story of job. i would definitely love to study bout the bible now.

pareho din pala kayo ng reasoning ni peacemaker.

Ano ang pareho sa aming reasoning? explain.

Sa aking sinabi (read the bible) nasa bible yan at di sa divine principles.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. --Romans 10:17

Kamo agnostic ka...meaning ng agnostic - a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; --Proverbs 3:5

Kaya reluctant ako sumagot sayo kasi nararamdaman ko you are not asking questions to learn from the bible but to argue. kahit ano sabihin ng bible sarado ka na, sana mali ako. I see na di mo pa binasa yung link re commentary on Genesis 3. I-compare mo rin sa ibang commentaries pag nabasa mo na, kasi tinanong mo pa rin kung ginawa ng Dios ang evil.

Regarding the book of Job, malaking tulong kung babasahin muna yung introduction o overview ng book.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=903

VI. PURPOSES:
A. To demonstrate that God is worthy of love apart from
the blessings He provides
B. To explain that God may allow suffering as a means to
purify and strengthen a person in godliness
C. To emphasize that man is unable to view life from God's
vast perspective
D. To explore the justice of God who treats the righteous
with suffering
E. To demonstrate to the evil angels (Satan) that God's
practice of blessing the righteous is not a hindrance
to the development of true righteousness
F. To address Mankind's wrestling with affliction which
defies human explanation

http://www.foundationsforfr eedom.net/References/OT/Poetical/Job/Job00_Introduction.h tml

http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/job/job_01.htm

[pc2005it]

did god create evil?

Hindi ginawa ng Diyos ang kasamaan.

Sa palagay ko, pumasok ang kasamaan sa mundo simula nang sinuway nila adan at eba ang kautusan ng Diyos: ang pagkain ng ipinagbabawal na prutas. Kung maibabalik lang sana ang nakaraan, gusto kong gabayan sila adan at eba. Maybe, hindi naging responsableng anak ng Diyos sila adan at eba. Kung sinunod lang sana nila ang Diyos, e napakaganda sana ang naging buhay ng sumunod na henerasyon. Kung naging mabuting magulang lang sana sila, hindi sana pinatay ni cain si abel. Ang kaparusahang kamatayan sa pagkain ng prutas, sa palagay ko, ay hindi pisikal kundi spiritual. Resulta ng pagkakasala ay hidwaan, kasamaan, kamalasan, etc. May katapusan ba sa kasamaan? Ang kasagutan ay kung handa at kusa bang maging responsable ang mga tao bilang mga anak ng Diyos.

[DaVinci]

i've already spent a lot time of thinkin, that is why i am collatin views from Christians (bible experts or not). i stopped practisin mah religion because it would be hypocrite of me to continue so if i have doubts in mah mind.
maybe, the time you spent thinkin was not enough ...you should try harder and be open to other possibilities....:)
when i was a child i was told to stop askin questions, just believe whether you like it or not. in mah own opinion, anyone can be happy wit or without religion. we all yearn for peace, harmony and love. i believe i can find this even without religion.
precisely, you can be happy without religion but not without God...religion just separate mankind...:)
i'm still searchin for answers. like i said in one of mah posts in this section, i don't want to believe that there is no god...but the more questions i ask, the more i believe that may be there is no god.
confusion...you will be more confused if you don't settle issues one at a time and questions just keep on comin...:)
about the story of job...god made a bet wit the devil that job won't lose his faith even if the devil put him on a test. god agreed to let the devil do anythin except for takin his life. job had all the misfortunes includin havin his kids killed.
same thing with my previous post, be open-minded and look at things in different perspectives and finally focus on God's purpose, not on the punishment...
if you're a lovin parent, would you place a bet to prove his love for you? Stacie Fil said test is not necessary but there were a lot of stories in the bible where god put someone's faith into test. there's abraham. the story of moses...hmnnn...if i also remember it right, god killed all the egyptians' first son.
also in my previous post, we have free will and God can only medlde by giving us choices or in this particular case test...
if god is a lovin parent, why let us experience those things?
of course God is a lovin parent but like any other parents God wants the best for his child and give him lesson (to learn) if he commited mistakes.:) what would you think of the world if all God's children are spoiled brats?
some say that god planned everythin
some say that we also have free will
if god had planned everythin then even if we are presented with choices we can assume that free will is just an illusion
if free will exists and we can change our fate, then god might not be almighty
that he is imperfect
that he is not what we pictured him to be
nice logic..very consistent...but since you like askin questions to yourself...have you asked yourself the possibility of God's will and our "free will" co-existing? just read my previous post on this one...
did god create evil?
i think God did not create evil....in order for the goodness of God to radiate towards whole of mankind somethin must hold it, i.e., its anti-goodness (evil)...so basically I am referrin on the concept of duality...:)

[infinite_trial]

Ano ang pareho sa aming reasoning? explain.
[quote]

you both insist on readin passages yet never explain what they meant.

[quote=alexb]
Sa aking sinabi (read the bible) nasa bible yan at di sa divine principles.


alin ang nasa bible? please enlighten me.


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. --Romans 10:17

Kamo agnostic ka...meaning ng agnostic - a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; --Proverbs 3:5


a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something? "something"?
so you say, you just accept everythin what the church teaches you. you seal your mind to possibilities.


Kaya reluctant ako sumagot sayo kasi nararamdaman ko you are not asking questions to learn from the bible but to argue. kahit ano sabihin ng bible sarado ka na, sana mali ako. I see na di mo pa binasa yung link re commentary on Genesis 3. I-compare mo rin sa ibang commentaries pag nabasa mo na, kasi tinanong mo pa rin kung ginawa ng Dios ang evil.


you are reluctant because you don't have a definite answer. i'm askin to learn and argue at the same time. argument is vital in learnin. i cannot convert on the spot by just readin the bible that is why i'm askin everyone's interpretations.


Regarding the book of Job, malaking tulong kung babasahin muna yung introduction o overview ng book.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=903

VI. PURPOSES:
A. To demonstrate that God is worthy of love apart from
the blessings He provides
B. To explain that God may allow suffering as a means to
purify and strengthen a person in godliness
C. To emphasize that man is unable to view life from God's
vast perspective
D. To explore the justice of God who treats the righteous
with suffering
E. To demonstrate to the evil angels (Satan) that God's
practice of blessing the righteous is not a hindrance
to the development of true righteousness
F. To address Mankind's wrestling with affliction which
defies human explanation

http://www.foundationsforfr eedom.net/References/OT/Poetical/Job/Job00_Introduction.h tml

http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/job/job_01.htm

okay i read it and highlighted the points. now, you refuse to give any comment about god bein a deceiver. wit the story of job, do you think you can still consider it as a fatherly love when he indeed put a bet against the devil to test job's faith. god supposedly is perfect right? then why does he need to test job's faith? to make fun of the devil? job's an innocent man...what did god do? he let the devil murder his entire family. did god apologize? no...what he did, he gave job another family which job might not probably want.

man is really unable to view god's perspective. he can do whatever he wants. he can murder a poor guy's family who's been good to him to prove satan he is almighty. what's his point?

and treats the righteous wit sufferin? what a sadist way to give someone a blessin.

[infinite_trial]

did god create evil?

Hindi ginawa ng Diyos ang kasamaan.

Sa palagay ko, pumasok ang kasamaan sa mundo simula nang sinuway nila adan at eba ang kautusan ng Diyos: ang pagkain ng ipinagbabawal na prutas. Kung maibabalik lang sana ang nakaraan, gusto kong gabayan sila adan at eba. Maybe, hindi naging responsableng anak ng Diyos sila adan at eba. Kung sinunod lang sana nila ang Diyos, e napakaganda sana ang naging buhay ng sumunod na henerasyon. Kung naging mabuting magulang lang sana sila, hindi sana pinatay ni cain si abel. Ang kaparusahang kamatayan sa pagkain ng prutas, sa palagay ko, ay hindi pisikal kundi spiritual. Resulta ng pagkakasala ay hidwaan, kasamaan, kamalasan, etc. May katapusan ba sa kasamaan? Ang kasagutan ay kung handa at kusa bang maging responsable ang mga tao bilang mga anak ng Diyos.

dude, you just contradicted yourself. sino ang gumawa ng prutas na yan? di ba ang dyos?

at baket sa bible ito ang nasasabi:

Isaiah 45:7: "I make peace and create evil"

sasabihin mo ding bang metaphor yan?

[infinite_trial]

precisely, you can be happy without religion but not without God...religion just separate mankind...


i believe we can. what bout other religion that do not recognize god? do you say they are unhappy?


same thing with my previous post, be open-minded and look at things in different perspectives and finally focus on God's purpose, not on the punishment...


dude, job's story was not just an everyday punishment of god. he permitted the devil to murder job's family. don't focus on god's punishment? para mo na ring sinabi baliwalain natin yung mga ginawa ni hitler. murder is still murder. god let the devil torture the poor man.


nice logic..very consistent...but since you like askin questions to yourself...have you asked yourself the possibility of God's will and our "free will" co-existing? just read my previous post on this one...


nice point. if our will and god's will are coexisting...then god may not be perfect. thus, he can just change his own rules wit a flick of his hand to stay atop of us.


i think God did not create evil....in order for the goodness of God to radiate towards whole of mankind somethin must hold it, i.e., its anti-goodness (evil)...so basically I am referrin on the concept of duality...


errr..so basically it's the same. still evil...refer to mah reply to pc.

[alexb]

you both insist on readin passages yet never explain what they meant. --Infinite_trial

Ang tanong ko saan pareho ang reasoning namin...reasoning. Is telling you to read reasoning?

alin ang nasa bible? please enlighten me. --Infinite_trial

kako read the bible kasi... Romans 10:17

a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something? "something"?
so you say, you just accept everythin what the church teaches you. you seal your mind to possibilities. --Infinite_trial

Thats the definition according to merriam & websters not my definition.
I dont accept what the church teaches but what the Word of God teaches.

you are reluctant because you don't have a definite answer. i'm askin to learn and argue at the same time. argument is vital in learnin. i cannot convert on the spot by just readin the bible that is why i'm askin everyone's interpretations. --Infinite_trial

I may not have all the answers but God does & I dont claim divinity.
And conversion ay di work ng tao, work ng Holy Spirit yan, your conversion is not my or any other man's burden. Pray first before you read the bible, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.

okay i read it and highlighted the points. now, you refuse to give any comment about god bein a deceiver. --Infinite_trial

Hello po, ikaw ang nagsabing deceiver ang Dios at sabi ko i-prove mo, asan na?
Ito 1 verse sa bible na nagbibigay ng glimpse kung bakit nangyayari ang suffering. (talaga bang nabasa mo na pati yung Genesis 3? kasi same questions)

See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. --Isaiah 48:10 NIV

God wants us refined! Praise God for the affliction!

Maiba tayo...
1- Naniniwala ka sa Dios?
2- Naniniwala ka ba na Dios at Tagapagligtas si Hesus?
3- Naniniwala ka ba na ang bible ay Word of God?

Kasi kung hindi, gusto ko malaman kung ano ang reference natin sa paguusap, ito ba ay Qu'ran, sanskrit, Divine principles, newspapers, logic o human reasoning ba? para di magulo di ba?

----------------------------------
Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions. --Proverbs 18:2 NLT

Sensible people keep their eyes glued on wisdom, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth. --Proverbs 17:24 NLT

[infinite_trial]

you both insist on readin passages yet never explain what they meant. --Infinite_trial

Ang tanong ko saan pareho ang reasoning namin...reasoning. Is telling you to read reasoning?

gusto mo pa bang ulitin ko ulet?

you both insist on readin passages yet never explain what they meant.


alin ang nasa bible? please enlighten me. --Infinite_trial

kako read the bible kasi... Romans 10:17


pinost mo na nga yan.


a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something? "something"?
so you say, you just accept everythin what the church teaches you. you seal your mind to possibilities. --Infinite_trial

Thats the definition according to merriam & websters not my definition.
I dont accept what the church teaches but what the Word of God teaches.


so hindi mo inaaccept ang sermon. mind you, you said I dont accept
you didn't say I do not accept only


you are reluctant because you don't have a definite answer. i'm askin to learn and argue at the same time. argument is vital in learnin. i cannot convert on the spot by just readin the bible that is why i'm askin everyone's interpretations. --Infinite_trial

I may not have all the answers but God does & I dont claim divinity.
And conversion ay di work ng tao, work ng Holy Spirit yan, your conversion is not my burden. Pray first before you read the bible.


sino ba may sabing saluhin mo? you claim to be a christian yet you do not care for the welfare of others.


okay i read it and highlighted the points. now, you refuse to give any comment about god bein a deceiver. --Infinite_trial

Hello po, ikaw ang nagsabing deceiver ang Dios at sabi ko i-prove mo, asan na?
Ito 1 verse sa bible na nagbibigay ng glimpse kung bakit nangyayari ang suffering. (talaga bang nabasa mo na pati yung Genesis 3? kasi same questions)


hello din po..sinagot ko na di mo ba nakita?
you still refuse to disprove god is a deceiver.
ano ang tawag dun sa ginawa nya kay adan at eba? warning?
warning lang?
god said that the fruit was poisonous...do not eat it because it is poisonous.
may it be spiritual death or physical death or whatever kind of death. god misled em to believe that the fruit was poisonous. the snake just persuaded them to eat it.


See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. --Isaiah 48:10 NIV

God wants us refined! Praise God for the affliction!

Maiba tayo...
1- Naniniwala ka sa Dios?
2- Naniniwala ka ba na Dios at Tagapagligtas si Hesus?
3- Naniniwala ka ba na ang bible ay Word of God?

Kasi kung hindi, gusto ko malaman kung ano ang reference natin sa paguusap, ito ba ay Qu'ran, sanskrit, Divine principles, newspapers, logic o human reasoning ba? para di magulo di ba?

----------------------------------
Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions. --Proverbs 18:2 NLT

Sensible people keep their eyes glued on wisdom, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth. --Proverbs 17:24 NLT

may problema po ba kayo sa mata?
bat iniiba nyo usapan..
may tinatanong ako kay job

[alexb]

gusto mo pa bang ulitin ko ulet?

you both insist on readin passages yet never explain what they meant.



pinost mo na nga yan.



so hindi mo inaaccept ang sermon. mind you, you said I dont accept
you didn't say I do not accept only



sino ba may sabing saluhin mo? you claim to be a christian yet you do not care for the welfare of others.



hello din po..sinagot ko na di mo ba nakita?
you still refuse to disprove god is a deceiver.
ano ang tawag dun sa ginawa nya kay adan at eba? warning?
warning lang?
god said that the fruit was poisonous...do not eat it because it is poisonous.
may it be spiritual death or physical death or whatever kind of death. god misled em to believe that the fruit was poisonous. the snake just persuaded them to eat it.



may problema po ba kayo sa mata?
bat iniiba nyo usapan..
may tinatanong ako kay job

Alam mo dun sa pinababasa ko may explanation na, kung ilalagay pa dito masyadong mahaba.

Adan at Eba - its a test of loyalty.

Job - to refine us.

welfare & conversion - magkaiba yan, inuulit ko, trabaho ng HS yang conversion. kung wala ako pakialam sa welfare ng iba, edi wala sana ako dito sa forum na ito at di sinasagot ang mga maling aral.

Kaya ko tinatanong nga, uulitin ko, para may kaayusan. Papunta kang Cubao ako naman Divisoria, eh magkikita nga tayo niyan. Dapat isa lang reference natin. Tell me ano reference natin?

Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions. --Proverbs 18:2 NLT

Sensible people keep their eyes glued on wisdom, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth. --Proverbs 17:24 NLT

[infinite_trial]

Alam mo dun sa pinababasa ko may explanation na, kung ilalagay pa dito masyadong mahaba.

Adan at Eba - its a test of loyalty.

Job - to refine us.



adan at eba...test of loyalty.
so inamin nyo na din na god really intend it to happen.
why does god need to test loyalty? e si eba at adan lang ang tao noon.

refine us? so you as a christian, accepts murderin a poor man's family to test his faith? what a wicked way to refine us. even if i'm gonna be a parent i will not subject mah kids into much sufferin just to teach em a lesson. in fact job didn't do anythin wrong. he's been a loyal servant.


welfare & conversion - magkaiba yan, inuulit ko, trabaho ng HS yang conversion. kung wala ako pakialam sa welfare ng iba, edi wala sana ako dito sa forum na ito at di sinasagot ang mga maling aral.

Kaya ko tinatanong nga, uulitin ko, para may kaayusan. Papunta kang Cubao ako naman Divisoria, eh magkikita nga tayo niyan. Dapat isa lang reference natin. Tell me ano reference natin?

Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions. --Proverbs 18:2 NLT

Sensible people keep their eyes glued on wisdom, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth. --Proverbs 17:24 NLT

welfare and conversion talagang magkaiba. wala naman akong sinabing pareho. you said yourself kaya ka nandito sa forum para sagutin ang maling aral. pero sinabi mo na mah conversion is not your burden. if you claim mah ideas conflictin wit the "true" teachings of god, you wouldn't give me such remark.

the bible is an evidence of contradiction...

Matthew 5:22: "Whoever saith, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire"

parehong bible ang reference natin.

[DaVinci]

i believe we can. what bout other religion that do not recognize god? do you say they are unhappy?
well, it depends on your definition of happiness...if you think that eatin 3x a day is being happy...i guess even "winnie the pooh" who doesn't believe in God can be happy...:D so the point is, it depends on how you define happiness...:)
dude, job's story was not just an everyday punishment of god. he permitted the devil to murder job's family. don't focus on god's punishment? para mo na ring sinabi baliwalain natin yung mga ginawa ni hitler. murder is still murder. god let the devil torture the poor man.
dude, am always tellin you to focus on the purpose not on the consequences (punishment or connivance)...anothe r suggestion, next time you leap some verses from the Bible be sure that you know the context of the whole passage...or else it will be really futile like what you've become..a non-believer...or might as well read it together with someone who knows the ins and outs of the Bible (that's not me:D )...just my 2 cents...:)
nice point. if our will and god's will are coexisting...then god may not be perfect. thus, he can just change his own rules wit a flick of his hand to stay atop of us.
well, there's a missing premise in between co-existence of both wills and God's imperfection...you have two conclusions but with missing premise...:confused: so, what's the connection? define perfect? please, enligthen me ...:)
errr..so basically it's the same. still evil...refer to mah reply to pc.
the same??? how??? maybe, you didn't get it...don't you...evil is the absence of goodness...it is something intangible...do you think God can create intangibles?

[infinite_trial]

well, it depends on your definition of happiness...if you think that eatin 3x a day is being happy...i guess even "winnie the pooh" who doesn't believe in God can be happy...:D so the point is, it depends on how you define happiness...:)


exactly. so if one's definition of happiness is without the influence of religion or god, then he can be happy.


dude, am always tellin you to focus on the purpose not on the consequences (punishment or connivance)...


whatever purpose it served, still we cannot deny the fact that god made a bet wit the devil, on someone's account. purpose of refinement like what alexb said? job didn't do anythin wrong. why didn't god pick a bad guy instead? cuz he want to prove the devil wrong! and he is supposed to know all bout this. so why does he still need to do the test and the provin? a very barbaric way to punish a loyal servant!


another suggestion, next time you leap some verses from the Bible be sure that you know the context of the whole passage...or else it will be really futile like what you've become..a non-believer...or might as well read it together with someone who knows the ins and outs of the Bible (that's not me:D )...just my 2 cents...:)


well don't tell that to me. i'm askin the people here postin random verses of the bible...yet they do not know what it meant too. how can they preach if they dunno their book? and they claim they help answerin false teachings...paano yun kung meron ngang "judgment day" kawawa naman tinuruan nila.


well, there's a missing premise in between co-existence of both wills and God's imperfection...you have two conclusions but with missing premise...:confused: so, what's the connection? define perfect? please, enligthen me ...:)


if our will possibly coexists wit god, then we can also possibly have the power to change his plans. if he is supposedly perfect, almighty, omnipotent...everyth in that he planned cannot be changed thus goin back to the argument that free will is just an illusion.


the same??? how??? maybe, you didn't get it...don't you...evil is the absence of goodness...it is something intangible...do you think God can create intangibles?

dude, you created your own definition. evil vs. good. good vs. evil. they are opposites, antonyms.

if you want to take it wit your own definitions...

evil = absence of goodness
good = absence of evil

can't be...on your definition of duality. so you mean to say

good = evil

if god is supposedly perfect, almighty, omnipotent...he has all the power to create anythin. may it be intangible or tangible. after all, we cannot see god, can we (literal sense not symbolic)? is he tangible or intangible?

[pc2005it]

dude, you just contradicted yourself. sino ang gumawa ng prutas na yan? di ba ang dyos?

at baket sa bible ito ang nasasabi:

Isaiah 45:7: "I make peace and create evil"

sasabihin mo ding bang metaphor yan?
ibig mo bang sabihin na ang prutas ay kasamaan?

Sori pero basic lang ang alam ko sa bibliya. Konsensya at sariling common sense lang ang gamit ko. Mas marami ka pa atang nalalaman kaysa sa akin. kung ok sa iyo, puede mo ring ituro sa akin ang nalalaman mo, open naman ako sa lahat ng opinion.

[infinite_trial]

ibig mo bang sabihin na ang prutas ay kasamaan?



Sa palagay ko, pumasok ang kasamaan sa mundo simula nang sinuway nila adan at eba ang kautusan ng Diyos: ang pagkain ng ipinagbabawal na prutas.


yan ang sabi mo kanina kaya binase ko lang ang sagot ko dyan. maaaring ang prutas ang nagdulot ng kasamaan na ang gumawa ay ang dyos.


Sori pero basic lang ang alam ko sa bibliya. Konsensya at sariling common sense lang ang gamit ko. Mas marami ka pa atang nalalaman kaysa sa akin. kung ok sa iyo, puede mo ring ituro sa akin ang nalalaman mo, open naman ako sa lahat ng opinion.


yan lang din ang sinusunod ko. but since ang ibang kausap ko dito ay binabatuhan ako ng mga bible verses, sinasagot ko din sila ng verses sa bible na nakikita ko.

[DaVinci]

yan ang sabi mo kanina kaya binase ko lang ang sagot ko dyan. maaaring ang prutas ang nagdulot ng kasamaan na ang gumawa ay ang dyos.

huling hirit na ito....:D

so ano ang ginawa ng Dyos yung prutas o yung kasamaan?:confused:

[dr_knockers]

If god is supposedly perfect, almighty, omnipotent...he has all the power to create anythin. may it be intangible or tangible. after all, we cannot see god, can we (literal sense not symbolic)? is he tangible or intangible?

Infinite-san,

Consider the following concept of GOD from the Bible;

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Therfore God is not tangible, He is a spiritual entity. I hope the above passages will enlighten us. :)

[infinite_trial]

huling hirit na ito....:D

so ano ang ginawa ng Dyos yung prutas o yung kasamaan?:confused:

nasagot ko na yata yan though hindi directly.

clear naman na ginawa ng dyos ang tree of knowledge na nagbunga ng prutas na nagdulot ng fall of humanity. ang serpent na naglure kay adan at eba, di ba't ginawa din ng dyos yun? if god again is almighty, it's either naanticipate na nya na magkakasala si adan at eba o sinadya nyang ituro ang tree of knowledge at sabihing wag tong kainin dahil nakakalason.

conclusion: if god created everythin, then all things, intangible or tangible were his creations. if one disagrees that god did not create evil, then comes the question...where did evil come from? to make it more complicated...where did god come from?

kaya madaling maging agnostic theist...you can exercise free thinking. maraming posibleng sagot. parang programming...marami ng nested if and else. pero wag na nating pagusapan ang programming. tulad nga ng sabi ng thread na ito...bible issues. weird lang, marami talagang contradictions ang bible na di mabigyan ng explanation ng mga christians. kaya laging palusot, basahin ng pametaphor, wag ka na magtanong...yun na yun dyos ang gumawa ng lahat wala na tayong magagawa, so on and so forth.

[infinite_trial]

Infinite-san,

Consider the following concept of GOD from the Bible;

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Therfore God is not tangible, He is a spiritual entity. I hope the above passages will enlighten us. :)

of course he is, we cannot see him nga e. unless he is just an illusion.
i was referrin to davinci's reply if god made intangibles. so i was explainin the logic that

if god = almighty
then god = intangible

he can be whatever he wants.

okay, so we all agree that he is intangible...

can we say god is moral, immoral or amoral?

[alexb]

adan at eba...test of loyalty.
so inamin nyo na din na god really intend it to happen.
why does god need to test loyalty? e si eba at adan lang ang tao noon.

refine us? so you as a christian, accepts murderin a poor man's family to test his faith? what a wicked way to refine us. even if i'm gonna be a parent i will not subject mah kids into much sufferin just to teach em a lesson. in fact job didn't do anythin wrong. he's been a loyal servant.

welfare and conversion talagang magkaiba. wala naman akong sinabing pareho. you said yourself kaya ka nandito sa forum para sagutin ang maling aral. pero sinabi mo na mah conversion is not your burden. if you claim mah ideas conflictin wit the "true" teachings of god, you wouldn't give me such remark.

the bible is an evidence of contradiction...

Matthew 5:22: "Whoever saith, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire"

parehong bible ang reference natin.

mainit na ata ulo mo ha :)

sensya na di ko nasagot kanina, kaya ko tinanong kung anong pareho sa reasoning namin kasi iniisip ko 'pangangatwiran' eh iba pala ibig mong sabihin.

God intend it to happen, alin? ang magkasala ang tao? Nope. Di dahil sa 2 lang tao nun kaya di dapat Niya sinubukan ang loyalty nila. Kung babasahin mo mapapansin mo na 'satan' na si lucifer, meaning he has fallen already at may naisama pa siyang ibang anghel sa rebelyon niya sa Dios. Sa madaling salita may ibang nilalang pa na naguguluhan dahil merong 'state of rebellion', kung naisama ni satanas ang ibang anghel, it was permitted kina Adan ang test, kaya lang, sadly they failed.

Malawak ang meaning ng book of Job, isa lang yang to refine us thru suffering. kung di mo matanggap eh ok lang. murdering? if you mean God murdered (I dont think thats the right word) Job's children well that's His prerogative, Dios Siya eh.

I suggest you study the Holy Spirit's role sa salvation ng tao. Di mo makuha yung sinasabi kong di trabaho ng tao ang i-convert ang kapwa niya. Convert, sa tagalog 'baguhin' tama ba? Kaya ko bang baguhin ka? Kaya ko bang baguhin ang ugali ng isang kriminal at tanggapin niya ang Dios? Hindi, Dios lang ang may kakayahan niyan.

Matt 5:22 - kaya nga di ko sinasabi, bible ang nagsasabi sa atin.

Di mo pa rin ako sinasagot...ano ang pagbabatayan natin sa usapang ito? Koran, Sanskrit, newspaper, logic o human reasoning ba?

Do you belive in God? Do you believe that Jesus is our God & Saviour? Do you believe in the bible?

[dr_knockers]

This thread is very enlightening. :)

Do you belive in God? Do you believe that Jesus is our God & Saviour? Do you believe in the bible?
@alexb,

I believe in God, in Christ and the Bible.

But How do we know if all the content of the Bible is true? if all the writings on it are all accurate and without errors. If Bible is not true then our BELIEFs would only be a blind faith.

I am not really that well verse about Bible. Please enlighten me. :)

[infinite_trial]

mainit na ata ulo mo ha :)

sensya na di ko nasagot kanina, kaya ko tinanong kung anong pareho sa reasoning namin kasi iniisip ko 'pangangatwiran' eh iba pala ibig mong sabihin.

God intend it to happen, alin? ang magkasala ang tao? Nope. Di dahil sa 2 lang tao nun kaya di dapat Niya sinubukan ang loyalty nila. Kung babasahin mo mapapansin mo na 'satan' na si lucifer, meaning he has fallen already at may naisama pa siyang ibang anghel sa rebelyon niya sa Dios. Sa madaling salita may ibang nilalang pa na naguguluhan dahil merong 'state of rebellion', kung naisama ni satanas ang ibang anghel, it was permitted kina Adan ang test, kaya lang, sadly they failed.


di malinaw yung nakabold...

ano ibig mong sabihin. hindi nya sinubukan ang loyalty ni adan at eba? makilinaw kasi sabi mo kanina its a test of loyalty.

teka si adan at eba ang pinaguusapan natin..ano kinalaman ni lucifer sa story ni adam and eve? andun ba sya sa genesis? sorry di ko alam kung andun sya o wala.


Malawak ang meaning ng book of Job, isa lang yang to refine us thru suffering. kung di mo matanggap eh ok lang. murdering? if you mean God murdered (I dont think thats the right word) Job's children well that's His prerogative, Dios Siya eh.


so ano tawag mo dun? ooppss..sorry napatay ko yung mga kamaganak mo. wag mong sabihin di alam ng dyos na mangyayari yun. still, pinahintulutan pa din nya ang devil na patayin ang pamilya ni job.

kaya nga. dyos sya. magagawa nya lahat ng gusto nya. mabait ka man at di umaangal sa dyos, kung feel nya makipagpustahan sa devil, magagawa nya...dyos sya e. still wicked ways of expressin god's so-called love.


I suggest you study the Holy Spirit's role sa salvation ng tao. Di mo makuha yung sinasabi kong di trabaho ng tao ang i-convert ang kapwa niya. Convert, sa tagalog 'baguhin' tama ba? Kaya ko bang baguhin ka? Kaya ko bang baguhin ang ugali ng isang kriminal at tanggapin niya ang Dios? Hindi, Dios lang ang may kakayahan niyan.


actually nabago nyo na ko. di tugma tugma mga sinasabi nyo, pero parepareho kayong kristyano. so sino papaniwalaan ko?


Matt 5:22 - kaya nga di ko sinasabi, bible ang nagsasabi sa atin.

pano ba yan...e mapupunta ka na daw sa hell sabi ng bible


Di mo pa rin ako sinasagot...ano ang pagbabatayan natin sa usapang ito? Koran, Sanskrit, newspaper, logic o human reasoning ba?


bible, logic and human reasoning. nasa bible issues tayo di ba? bakit kasali ang koran?


Do you belive in God? Do you believe that Jesus is our God & Saviour? Do you believe in the bible?

akala ko pa naman tiningnan mo nga meaning na agnostic. agnostic theist to be exact. maaaring totoo ang dyos, maaaring hindi. ngayon maniniwala lang ako kung mapapatunayan yan. maaaring imposible ng mapatunayan. kaya nasa gitna ako. ang atheist di naniniwala sa dyos. ako, naghohope pa na totoo sya.

bible...maniniwala ako kung maeexplain ang contradictions.

[jhunex]

Hi:)

I just wanna share this answer to your question hoping it will satisfy even a little bit.



i'm just wonderin...if God planned everythin, He knew that Adam and Eve would disobey Him.

Only God knows. Certainly God's will was that adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. God grieved that He had made man on earth because man became such sinners. God declares that..."He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked...and that He is not willing that anyone should perish"
Certainly God had the omniscience to know what they would do. But I would say God did not know what they were going to do, because He had no need to know. He had no need to exercise His power of foreknowledge because God's relationship with His children was based on trust.

It's written in the Bible that Jesus, the son of God would come to save humanity from the original sin. Now...

Yes, because of the human fall.

- does this mean that He purposedly told Adam and Eve not to touch the forbidden fruit to provoke their curiosity?

No, because God grieved that He made man on earth because man became sinners.

- is it fair for God to tell them that they have sinned when logically Adam and Eve had no sense of morality when they ate the fruit? in fact, they didn't noticed that they were naked until they ate the forbidden fruit.

Shame of nakedness is a shame that is indelibly connected to sexual "knowledge". They did not "know" their nakedness because they were unaware of the sexual experience. Has Adam and Eve joined together under the perfection of God 's love, then their sexual experience would not have produced shame. Adam and Eve covered the sexual areas of their bodies which indicates the "knowledge" they received was through sexual experience of which eating the fruit is a symbol (see Gen. 4:1 "to know", Song of Songs 4:12-16 the meaning of fruit, Prov. 30:20 the meaning to "eat".


- is it possible that the serpent, was not the devil or Satan at all, and it could be God Himself? where did the devil come from? did God created him/it too? if God did, was it before he created a man or after? and why did he/it know that Eve will not die upon eatin the fruit?

Satan is the fallen angel Lucifer. God created Lucifer and as an original being of God, was created to be good. Lucifer fell and become the being that we identify with the name Satan.
Satan came about when Lucifer fell outside the sphere of God's law and love.
Evil is that which is outside the sphere of God's love and principle.

- if God knew everythin that would happen, why He had not seen Adam hidin from Him after they ate the fruit?

God is omniscient and omnipotent. That God has these attributes, however, does not mean that God is a slave to those attributes. God is also a sovereign God. Than means God can choose when and where and under what circumstances to exercise His omnipotence and omniscience.
God chose not to exercise His power of foreknowledge in that God had entered into a relationship of faith and entrustment with His children.
God entrusted Adam and Eve with His word fully and therefore had no need to exert His omniscience to see whether or not they would fulfill.
When Adam and Eve sinned, therefore, it broke fully the entrustment that God had placed in them. God's grief (Gen. 6:6) is a genuine grief, not a symbolic one.

- if Eve had not eaten the fruit, what would have happened with the original sin? would Jesus Christ still be born to save us? would He be any different from us if it didn't happen?

If Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit then God's Will be realize as stated in Gen. 1:28,..be fruitful and multiply and have dominion....
If God's will had been realize and Adam & Eve are in the state of perfection there is no need for Christ or a saviour.
Jesus will still be born but he will be no different from us if we are all in the state of perfection.

- if the previous question's impossible to happen since everythin was planned...then can we say that there is no free will? that whatever we choose wouldn't matter cuz the result would be the same.

Freedom is a conditional environtment. Freedom (and free choice) are maintained when Adam would fulfill his responsibility to keep God's commandment. There is nothing inherently good about choice.
Choice must gain the quality of goodness by following and subjecting itself to a guideline, of truth (and goodness).
When choice steps outside that guideline, the quality of freedom is lost. Sin is never really a choice resultant of freedom, but rather an act resultant of overwhelming desire.
Overwhelming desire is the result of the vacuum created by the rejection of the righteous guideline of true choice. It is why sin carries within it, the nature of habit and the quality of slavery and addiction. Adam and Eve, did not freely choose evil. Adam and Eve failed in their responsibility to maintain their orientation to God's commandment (the guideline of free choice).
When theystepped outside that guideline, they were overcome and controlled by excessive desire, resulting in their fall.

Please see my post # 8 on this same thread ( pasensya na hindi ko alam paano i re-post dito eh)
:) :halo:

[adechan]

Wow!:eek:

Quite amazed and excited as well, how questions and answers revolved in this thread, need to read twice or thrice messages below, before sharing mine.

Have a blessed Sunday!!!

[alexb]

di malinaw yung nakabold...

ano ibig mong sabihin. hindi nya sinubukan ang loyalty ni adan at eba? makilinaw kasi sabi mo kanina its a test of loyalty.teka si adan at eba ang pinaguusapan natin..ano kinalaman ni lucifer sa story ni adam and eve? andun ba sya sa genesis? sorry di ko alam kung andun sya o wala.

di mo alam na nandun si satan? kasi naman, sabi mo binasa mo na, basahin mo muna


so ano tawag mo dun? ooppss..sorry napatay ko yung mga kamaganak mo. wag mong sabihin di alam ng dyos na mangyayari yun. still, pinahintulutan pa din nya ang devil na patayin ang pamilya ni job.kaya nga. dyos sya. magagawa nya lahat ng gusto nya. mabait ka man at di umaangal sa dyos, kung feel nya makipagpustahan sa devil, magagawa nya...dyos sya e. still wicked ways of expressin god's so-called love.

di mo rin binasa, alam mo mas madali ang usapan natin kung binasa mo muna, kasi parang nasa 1 plus 1 pa tayo na dapat nasa calculus na tayo.

But consider the joy of those corrected by God! Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty when you sin. --Job 5:17 NLT

Don't tell me na walang sin si Job, everyone is a sinner according to the bible.


actually nabago nyo na ko. di tugma tugma mga sinasabi nyo, pero parepareho kayong kristyano. so sino papaniwalaan ko?

paniwalaan mo ang bible, kaya nga sabi ko basahin mo, mag-aral ka. the bible interprets itself.

pano ba yan...e mapupunta ka na daw sa hell sabi ng bible

ano ba ang sinasabi ng bible re 'fools' - Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; no one does good! --Psalms 14:1 NLT

character daw ng 'fools':
1- they say there is no God
2- they are corrupt
3- their actions are evil
4- they don't do good

bible, logic and human reasoning. nasa bible issues tayo di ba? bakit kasali ang koran?

kaya nga pinapipili kita, you can argue using anything dahil yun lang naman gusto mo di ba, ang makipag-argue? I hope I'm wrong.
Human reasoning: sabi ng bible 'dont lean on your own understanding'.

akala ko pa naman tiningnan mo nga meaning na agnostic. agnostic theist to be exact. maaaring totoo ang dyos, maaaring hindi. ngayon maniniwala lang ako kung mapapatunayan yan. maaaring imposible ng mapatunayan. kaya nasa gitna ako. ang atheist di naniniwala sa dyos. ako, naghohope pa na totoo sya.

agnostic - a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something, eh kahit anong usapan pala you will never commit, its a waste of time.

"maniniwala kung mapapatunayan" what kind of proof do you need? proof thru the senses?
may utak ka ba? nakikita mo ba ang utak mo? naamoy mo ba ang utak mo? nadidinig o nasasalat mo ba ang utak mo? pls answer these questions.

bible...maniniwala ako kung maeexplain ang contradictions.

Use the original versions (hebrew, aramaic, greek) kasi sa translations nagkakaiba kaya sabi ng iba contradictory. The bible was written in the span of 1500 yrs kung di ako nagkakamali at ibat-ibang authors pero one theme lang. Bakit sa theme walang contradiction?

Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions. --Proverbs 18:2 NLT

Sensible people keep their eyes glued on wisdom, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth. --Proverbs 17:24 NLT

It is safer to meet a bear robbed of her cubs than to confront a fool caught in folly. --Proverbs 17:12 NLT

A single rebuke does more for a person of understanding than a hundred lashes on the back of a fool. --Proverbs 17:10 NLT



good

[alexb]

di malinaw yung nakabold...

ano ibig mong sabihin. hindi nya sinubukan ang loyalty ni adan at eba? makilinaw kasi sabi mo kanina its a test of loyalty.teka si adan at eba ang pinaguusapan natin..ano kinalaman ni lucifer sa story ni adam and eve? andun ba sya sa genesis? sorry di ko alam kung andun sya o wala.

di mo alam na nandun si satan? kasi naman, sabi mo binasa mo na, basahin mo muna


so ano tawag mo dun? ooppss..sorry napatay ko yung mga kamaganak mo. wag mong sabihin di alam ng dyos na mangyayari yun. still, pinahintulutan pa din nya ang devil na patayin ang pamilya ni job.kaya nga. dyos sya. magagawa nya lahat ng gusto nya. mabait ka man at di umaangal sa dyos, kung feel nya makipagpustahan sa devil, magagawa nya...dyos sya e. still wicked ways of expressin god's so-called love.

di mo rin binasa, alam mo mas madali ang usapan natin kung binasa mo muna, kasi parang nasa 1 plus 1 pa tayo na dapat nasa calculus na tayo.

But consider the joy of those corrected by God! Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty when you sin. --Job 5:17 NLT

Don't tell me na walang sin si Job, everyone is a sinner according to the bible.


actually nabago nyo na ko. di tugma tugma mga sinasabi nyo, pero parepareho kayong kristyano. so sino papaniwalaan ko?

paniwalaan mo ang bible, kaya nga sabi ko basahin mo, mag-aral ka. the bible interprets itself.

pano ba yan...e mapupunta ka na daw sa hell sabi ng bible

ano ba ang sinasabi ng bible re 'fools' - Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; no one does good! --Psalms 14:1 NLT

character daw ng 'fools':
1- they say there is no God
2- they are corrupt
3- their actions are evil
4- they don't do good

bible, logic and human reasoning. nasa bible issues tayo di ba? bakit kasali ang koran?

kaya nga pinapipili kita, you can argue using anything dahil yun lang naman gusto mo di ba, ang makipag-argue? I hope I'm wrong.
Human reasoning: sabi ng bible 'dont lean on your own understanding'.

akala ko pa naman tiningnan mo nga meaning na agnostic. agnostic theist to be exact. maaaring totoo ang dyos, maaaring hindi. ngayon maniniwala lang ako kung mapapatunayan yan. maaaring imposible ng mapatunayan. kaya nasa gitna ako. ang atheist di naniniwala sa dyos. ako, naghohope pa na totoo sya.

agnostic - a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something, eh kahit anong usapan pala you will never commit, its a waste of time.

"maniniwala kung mapapatunayan" what kind of proof do you need? proof thru the senses?
may utak ka ba? nakikita mo ba ang utak mo? naamoy mo ba ang utak mo? nadidinig o nasasalat mo ba ang utak mo? pls answer these questions.

bible...maniniwala ako kung maeexplain ang contradictions.

Use the original versions (hebrew, aramaic, greek) kasi sa translations nagkakaiba kaya sabi ng iba contradictory. The bible was written in the span of 1500 yrs kung di ako nagkakamali at ibat-ibang authors pero one theme lang. Bakit sa theme walang contradiction?

Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions. --Proverbs 18:2 NLT

Sensible people keep their eyes glued on wisdom, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth. --Proverbs 17:24 NLT

It is safer to meet a bear robbed of her cubs than to confront a fool caught in folly. --Proverbs 17:12 NLT

A single rebuke does more for a person of understanding than a hundred lashes on the back of a fool. --Proverbs 17:10 NLT


good day:)

[dr_knockers]

of course he is, we cannot see him nga e. unless he is just an illusion.
i was referrin to davinci's reply if god made intangibles. so i was explainin the logic that

if god = almighty
then god = intangible

he can be whatever he wants.

okay, so we all agree that he is intangible...

can we say god is moral, immoral or amoral?

Infinite-san,

Would you please deliverate first the backgroud of your question on whether God can be called moral, immoral or amoral.

I would like to know your opinion first more deeply. :)

[Stacie Fil]

@ Infinite T

"maaaring totoo ang dyos, maaaring hindi. ngayon maniniwala lang ako kung mapapatunayan yan. maaaring imposible ng mapatunayan. kaya nasa gitna ako. ang atheist di naniniwala sa dyos. ako, naghohope pa na totoo sya.

bible...maniniwala ako kung maeexplain ang contradictions."

Hoy bata, isusumbong kita kay father saka kila sister.:p
Hindi ka na ika mo nagsisimba at nag pi-pray sa gabi.
Nang aaway ka na rin ngayon, saka matigas ulo,ha,ha,ha,ha! :biglaugh: :fence:

Jok lang sis!:bowdown:

Relax...ang puso mo! Masyado kang nadadala, huwag padalos-dalos,he,he,he.
Patience nang konte, maliliwanagan mo rin yan.:jiggy:

Naalala ko tuloy noong maliit pa ako. Isinaksak ko yung daliri ko sa outlet nang koryente. WOW MAY DIOS PO!:yikes: :halo:


:)

[infinite_trial]

this is your recent post

Only God knows. Certainly God's will was that adam and Eve not to eat the fruit.


this is taken from your post #8

Though free will did not cause the Fall, Adam and Eve lost their freedom because of their sin.


if it's not "certainly" god's will and not man's free will either, then the fall is who's fault?

God declares that..."He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked...and that He is not willing that anyone should perish"


yet in the story of job, he let his family perished just to prove the devil wrong. job was not just "anyone", he had been a loyal servant.


Certainly God had the omniscience to know what they would do. But I would say God did not know what they were going to do, because He had no need to know.


jhunex, you again contradicting yourself.
now if you say he had no need to know, we go back to the story of job, where he needed to test his faith (that he should know if he is omniscient), so why did god do that?


He had no need to exercise His power of foreknowledge because God's relationship with His children was based on trust.


again, please refer to mah question about job.

this was also taken from your post #8

The reason is that freedom exists only within the confines of God's law. Outside of God's law, there is no freedom.


freedom (noun) a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another

you said that it's a paradox. can we say in realistic sense that we do not have absolute freedom since we are confined wit god's laws?


Shame of nakedness is a shame that is indelibly connected to sexual "knowledge". They did not "know" their nakedness because they were unaware of the sexual experience. Has Adam and Eve joined together under the perfection of God 's love, then their sexual experience would not have produced shame. Adam and Eve covered the sexual areas o